Should I get a 28 gauge?

[Box T]

Here's a synopsis of my story with shotguns: I've been dove hunting with 12 gauges since I could hold one up, which is about the last 20 years (my dad's and grandfathers guns - Ithaca 37 (modified choke), Winchester 1200? Pump (the one with an Aluminum receiver, modified choke)). Last year I bought a used 870 Wingmaster in 20 gauge (again modified), and really like it, plus hit about the same % of birds/clays as I do with those 12s. I also have a blackpowder 12 gauge that I get out when I really want a challenge. Other miscellaneous facts: I'm a bit of a gun nut, but am just starting putting together my own collection. I'd also like a gun that would be good for kids / smaller women to shoot (when I have friends out to the ranch). My 12's are too long / heavy for most of my female friends to comfortably shoot, and my 20 is a little too long for them as well (not the draw, but the reach to the forearm).

I have been theorizing that a efficient addition to my collection would be a 28 gauge, either in SxS or O/U from a respectable manufacturer (ideas?), or an autoloader (1100). I think that it will be compact and light enough for smaller and less gun-experienced females friends to shoot, and it would give me a nice challenge. Am I making good assumptions or setting myself up for disappointment? Note: I don't think ammo availability will that big a deal as I live close to two excellent gun shops that stock 28ga.

The other difficulties are: A) budget - I'd like to spend less than $500, could go a little over that, but not over $750. B) my taste in guns - I really like used, but well cared for guns with mid-level (A-grade, semi-fancy) wood and no inlays / fancy stuff. Basically something that has classic looks, but that I'm not afraid to walk though the brush with.

Is this a good plan? Recommendations? Thanks!

 

[sm]

Yes.

Let me address price first.
You have a budget, and I respect it, for what your uses are, introducing new shooters, caught my eye.
$625 is what fellow recently paid for a very nice, 870 Wingmaster.
$300 is what another fellow recently paid for a very nice older Express 870.

I currently do not know what the 1100s are bringing, nobody is letting go of these.
O/U are going to be more money, and while I really like SxS guns, a single sighting plane is best for a new shooter to learn on.

1100s are what I and countless others really prefer to start a new student with.
O/U s are the next platform.
Pumps, follow.
Single shot Shotgun I and others use, for kids, and physically limited persons and there are quite a few of these persons as members of THR.

Stocks are easier to come by for less monies on a 870, then 1100 to have kid, and youth stocks to go along with a adult sized one.
Single shots allow one to buy guns in kid, youth and adult sizes.
O/U, and SxS are not going to have affordable stock options and one really has to think, before cutting one down.

Will Fennell is one respected friend of mine that teaches with a 28 gauge.
He is not the only well known shooter, and there are countless others on this forum that teach with a 28 ga as well.


I was a little kid and my first shotgun lessons were with a 28 gauge.
Not just learning to hunt, or shoot clays ,my defensive shotgunning was also taught with a 28 gauge
I had some interesting Mentors, and on a hot range, I learned defensive shotgunning and back then what they called offensive shotgunning too.


28 ga is more effective than it is supposed to be, one reason is the payload to bore diameter ratio. This is why the 28 ga hits harder than it should, as it has a short shot string.

Less perceived recoil , means a shooter does not fatigue , get sloppy on form and correct basic fundamentals and develop a flinch. Correct basic fundamental are ingrained and instilled.

Guns get heavy, and new shooters have developed muscles or stamina, the 28 ga guns allows them to develop properly.

Toting a gun more than shooting, again is a nice thing about the 28 ga.

Serious is the physically limited person one must consider.
Safety for the student is Paramount. Student have to know the instructor is going to keep them safe. This trust is earned, and the 28 ga goes a long way to assist an instructor in earning this trust.

Younger folks still in stages of development do not need to get hurt, same concerns as heavy back packs , with heavy books for younger kids causing problems.

Ladies are built different than men, and so a lady appreciates some respect and considerations.

Older persons , have arthritis, and may have other health concerns, like having had a hip replaced some years back.
Toting, holding, and repetitive shooting with a recoil curve on a 28 ga is more healthy, and safer for them.

More serious are the ones that have have Serious Injuries or Disease and the Doctor and Physical Therapists says NO Recoil.

Detached Retinas, Neck, Shoulder and Back Surgeries for instance.

One can lose an eye or be permanently paralyzed if they do not obey Dr's Orders.

This is where a shooter finally recovers and gets to shoot a simple, light .22 rifle, then a .410, then the 28 gauge.
This is why and how short range trap , 5 stand and sporting clay course came to be and 28 ga guns used. Skeet already afforded these folks to shoot again.


My take on 28 gauge is not a snobbish one.

I grew up with Veterans of War, and some were in bad shape. Others went downhill over the years due to injuries.

Growing up, Special Forces, Rangers , Marines, Army and Cops, and other real deal folks would teach folks how to defend themselves with a shotgun, and a 28 ga shotgun was used to teach.

I was one of these and I started very very young.

Some armchair quarterback will mention slugs.

Well I was born in '55 and my Mentors had slugs for 28 ga then. 28 ga is .550, not that far off from a .54 caliber.
History shares what a .54 caliber did in war, and in felling bison , elk, deer and bear.

Ballistic Products is one company that makes a round ball slug for .410 and 28 ga.

This slug affords a smaller person, or an older person with physical limits some options.
Including going deer hunting, and that older person passing down to a grandkid.
Like deer hunting, or pests on the property.


What one gets for monies spent is always the key. If this means stretching the budget if can do so, please.
New shooters are our future, and our best natural resource are our older member of society.

Yes, you need a 28 gauge in my opinion.

You get the "it" of responsible firearm ownership, and I personally thank you.


Regards,

Steve

 

[PJR]

The 28 gauge is my favorite gauge. Having owned the others I decided to reduce my inventory to 12 and 28.

It is the gauge I use to teach women and younger people. It is the gun I use when I want to drop a few jaws at the club among those people who state "a 28 gauge can't hit THAT far" because it certainly can. There is no target either feathered or clay that I would consider unachievable with 40 yards and I only put that limit on for live birds. The 28 gauge is all that and more.

But it does have certain drawbacks. Factory ammo is expensive and limited compared to the 12 and 20. There is not a wide selection of shot sizes, non-tox is'nt widely available, nor is there buckshot or no slugs from the factory. This is not an issue if you reload but reloading the 28 is a more finicky business than loading the 12 or 20. Not impossible but there are far fewer options in powder, wads, hulls than with the larger guages and pressure ranges are narrower.

As for a gun in your price range I'd haunt the stores and shows and look for a Remington 1100 Sporting in a 25" barrel. They are less in demand than more recent versions with the 27" barrel. If you are lucky you might find a 28 gauge 1100 Skeet. I eventually found a nice one for under $500 but I looked a very long time.

I think you should have a 28 gauge but I also think you go into the decision with your eyes wide open.

 

[45auto]

Not much to add to SM's post.

But, yes...get a 28 gauge and I'd go with the 1100.

One caveat; you will want to reload 28 gauge when you look at the price of ammo!

 

[birdbustr]

No, unless you can find all the reloading components to feed that shotgun. Press, shells and wads may be a challenge to find. I don't think I have ever seen a box of 28ga shells on a shelf. I'm sure they can be found, but I even have a hard time finding "the right" box of 12 gauge shells at local stores. If you are going to reload then go for it.

 

[Box T]

sm - awesome post, thank you so much! It makes me feel great to know that I have been on-track with my thinking. I love introducing people to shooting - thanks for letting me know I'm going about it correctly - my only mentors are books and what I read here.

PJR, 45auto, birdbustr - thank you as well for your thoughts. I live about 15 minutes from a Cabela's, and several other large firearms retailers that I know stock 28 gauge shells (Cabela's has 28 reloading supplies as well), and I am considering putting together a reloading bench in my garage as a two-fer (new hobby, lower cost of shells).

I'll keep looking for used 28s, preferably 1100s, and I'll visit the reloading forum to get some advice there. I'm a conservative person, but as you say, sm, "New shooters are our future" - with that thought in mind maybe I'll allow myself to stretch the budget enough to make sure I get the right gun for the job. Thanks again!

 

[sm]

Box T,

It is I that thanks you!

One cannot put a monetary value on introducing new shooters to responsible firearm ownership.

28 ga shells cost a bit more money, and reloading allows one quality shells for the investment made.
The Dividends payed forward - one cannot put a monetary value on later either.

Shotgunning: The Art & Science - by Bob Brister
Is another investment a new shooter should make.

BB Guns are another great investment new shooters should make.

Kids: I and mine take a one pc wood stock, it might even have a crack in it.
Like a old Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22, and using PVC we make a "barrel" for that kid sized "shotgun".

Take a mat, and make foot prints of proper stance on that mat.
That kid can stand with correct foot position and with lessons of correct basic fundamentals , mount "gun" to face and these repetitions instill correct basic fundamentals of safety, foot position, stance, mounting gun to face, swing, follow through...
It also build up muscles and stamina.

The adults do nightly repetitions using rules of safety...
Kids can do this too.


Will Fennell, PM him and see who that fella was that had ammunition he recommenced.
I forget, and cannot find my bookmark.

Oh, never underestimate other shooters. Everyone has a role in all this, and some, some know they do not do well introducing , assisting and teaching.
Which is fine.

There are those that will give away hulls, reloaded shells, bags of shot, wads, primers...

I know, I have had a package left in a truck bed, or a student get totally shocked and "that nice man/lady just gave me a case of 28 ga new/reloads..."

I've seen buckets done this way and a note "when these need re-filling, let me know..."

I've seen new shooters pump gas and go into pay and the attendant inside inform them "Oh, that guy/gal leaving, just paid for your gas..."

That was the guy or gal at the range, that does not say a lot, they do other things at the range, from keeping the grass moved, weeds cut, or the inside club restrooms clean, carpet vacuumed, floor mopped....their role.

It takes everyone doing their role, for responsible firearm ownership.

Attraction not Promotion
Attraction gets a lot of new folks to want to learn to shoot.
These same folks vote, write letters and work on legislations, join gun rights groups, and so much more.

All because some one shows someone how to shoot and they are attracted to a neat 28 ga shotgun, and had the best time, and their kids, and family were treated so well.

Not being harped at, yelled at, talked down to like an idiot "well what are going to do about women learning to shoot, or gun rights, or CCW or we ...or..."


Get a 28 ga and Run'em!

 

[kentucky_smith]

You'll find in your search that 20 gauges are easier to find and to shoot, comparably recoiling ammo is out there.


There's not much difference sizewise between a 28 gauge 1100 or 870 and a 20.

 

[sm]

Yes the 20 ga ammo is easier to find, and less money.

Problem is gun weight and size and the Rule of 96 and platform.

I was shooting handguns at age 3, rifles at age 4, shotguns at age 5.

I and mine still start them young. We have 3 year olds learning shotgun lessons. Wood stock, PVC barrel and feet on a mat and learning and having the best time doing what adults do.

I an mine are real familiar with detached retinas, neck, shoulder, , Osteo, Arthritis, Physically limited, Cancer, Diabetes, ....

Range of motion comes into play, receivers are longer on semi's and pumps.
Target guns weigh around 8 pounds and up, field guns about 6 3/4 pounds, in both repeaters and break open.

The diabetic that lost a foot, and having to get used to prosthesis, appreciates being able to focus on target, and not equipment.

The 22 year old lady that lost a breast / had to have special plastic surgery on a breast- due to a a car wreck as the seat belt cut her, appreciates someone thinking about her special needs and folks understanding all this.

The burn victim that used to have more range of motion, and could shuck and pump with the best of them....

I understand light loads in 12 and 20 gauge, I respect budgets and money concerns...
I am not being argumentative...just I do have my role, and my convictions.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

A couple of boys (my nephew and his friend) getting their first clays with Sandy's little 28 ga SXS:

 

[kentucky_smith]

Problem is gun weight and size and the Rule of 96 and platform.

Examples with numbers? MOST 20 gauges conform to Greener's Rule and weigh in over 6 pounds for a MAGNUM 20 gauge load and are still a nice light nimble gun be it auto, pump or double.

 

[sm]

kentucky_smith,

We will have to agree to disagree.

I understand your points and they are well taken.

Just I do have my experiences and observations and that is all I can really share.

The high round count shooters that develop injuries, and these shooters did shoot light loads, and some even 20 ga guns, developed some injuries not just from recoil, also from repetitive motion. Just toting, and mounting gun to face.


Same thing a postal worker gets just putting an envelope in a slot sorting mail.
Jailer's thumb comes from turning keys...
RMS.


Heck many of them, did I did, we only shot 28 for all 3 events and then had to use a .410 for the little critter event.
We shot so much, it was a matter of not having to mess with the other guns, barrels, tubes and ammunition.
If the damn .410 was effective, we would have shot .410 for everything and only messed with one gun and bought .410 shells.

.410 is not, so we only ordered 5 pallets of 28g ammo and reloading components for instance.
Two pallets of nothing but .410 is ...really different to see...



I know some folks for instance that shoot single shot 28 ga shotguns for trap.
I've seen the Xrays and some I was in the OR when they had surgeries done, as I was working in a OR .

These ladies and gents had nice guns, really nice loadings that patterned well , of light loads.

Some used to shoot other clay games, and took up trap, short trap, so a lighter gun, approved by a doctor, surgeon, and physical therapist finally approved.

Some folks do not do well with a 6 pound gun, some cannot even do a shotgun period, as even a 5 pound one is off limits in .410.

3 1/2 pound single shot .22 they can do, no more shotguns, they used to, and did so a lot, but...now they can't.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[PJR]

There's not much difference sizewise between a 28 gauge 1100 or 870 and a 20.

Having owned a 28 gauge 1100, 870 and a 20 gauge 870 size wise you are not incorrect. But recoil and handling wise they are all very different guns.

 

[kentucky_smith]

Just throwing stuff out there. I've been tempted by 28s a time or two and probably will sooner or later, but the right opportunity hasn't presented itself.
Researching ammo costs and availability scared me off last time.

It's easier to feed my 16ga M12 and 311 with good ammo than it is a 28.

Especially since I have light recoiling, light weighing 20s.

I might be wrong, but I can't see very much difference on paper between a 6# gun shooting 7/8s load and another 6# gun with a 3/4.

 

[sm]

3/4 oz from a 28 ga has a shorter shot string...

 

[kentucky_smith]

...than a 7/8s load from a 20. Maybe, and differences between the square load of a 28 and the 20 load are miniscule. But try to get a little more from the 28 and you're up against it.

The 20 is and will always be more readily available, both gun and ammo-wise.

 

[sm]

The 20 is and will always be more readily available, both gun and ammo-wise.

Yes they will.

The short shot you know and understand.
28 ga have this, 20 bores - with a 3/4 load - can toss nice patterns , just them shot strings are not the same.

WE understand all all this, as stationary targets and pattern boards only reveal stationary patterns, moving targets are another dimension.

Hey, at least we are not into the 4.25" shells with umpteen bazillon pellets of 00000 buckshot in this thread - now them 12 and 20 ga loading are something else...*snicker-wink*


One concern going way back to GCA of '68 Mentors had, and a concern still...

IF, and let us hope it never comes to be, If, the government in the USA, does what has occurred in other countries, as history shares:
Civilians cannot have the same guns or caliber/guages as Police /Military...

12 ga for civilians and some popular guns and accessories are out too.

20 ga will still be allowed ( we hope) and the 28 ga and .410 will be the last shotguns banned ( we hope)

So...a 1100 in 28 ga, or break open 28 ga be it O/U, SxS or Single Shot, ...well....see the versatility of the 28 ga and enhancing with 28 ga slugs?

Ammo period might be a pain...
Just thinking out of the box is all...

 

[kentucky_smith]

28 ga have this
g, 20 bores - with a 3/4 load - can toss nice patterns , just them shot strings are not the same.

I would think type of shot would play a bigger part in this than bore. High levels of antimony, less deformed pellets, blah blah.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just giving you something to work with.

 

[sm]

kentucky_smith,

What are trying to do, give the armchair rangers a conniption fit ?
You are speaking a foreign language sharing about "square loads", "deformed pellets" , "antimony" and the like.

It is all about the bling and how much you sling!

"Ultimate Shotguns Rulz !!"
So the armchair sez
"One cannot miss with all them deformed pellets!"
"I read it on teh Intrawebz "


I mean this like way better than Totally Awesome Dude and Gnarly

*snicker-tacky*

 

[kentucky_smith]

Just waiting for someone to finally come out and admit that Ol' Bob claimed that the 28 on paper wasn't all that great and that modern loads in a nice 20 will do everything (shoot, carry) a 28 will just as handily.

Just some of them 28's are especially nice. If I could find the right sxs or OU without breaking the bank I'd get one (and take home a mec reloader at the same time).

 

[coltm]

you can get a mossberg 500 pump .410 for $240 at gander mountain and i think .410 shells are going to be easier to find in varieties of shells (the only 28 gauges i've ever seen on the shelf were aa's). Or you could get a good youth 20 ga. semi not much recoil in the gas semi's and the youth would make women able to shoot it fine. also a 20 gauge is going to make hitting whatever there shooting easier so more fun for a begginer

 

[PJR]

My first introduction to the 28 gauge was with a three-barrel skeet set. I shot thousands of rounds with that gun and discovered that when it came to hitting targets the only thing the 20 gauge gave me over the 28 was more recoil. Scores were identical. The .410 was another story entirely.

Another reason why the 28 gauge appeals to me is that having narrowly escaped a 12/20 burst I know that should I inadvertently drop a 28 gauge into a 12 gauge gun it will just fall out of the gun. Lesser known is the 20/28 burst. Put a 28 gauge shell into a 20 and it will catch in the forcing cone.

Owning the 12 and 28 gauge makes the 20 gauge redundant. I have a light 12 gauge sxs that can be loaded down to 20 gauge levels and the 28 is superior to the .410 when I want to shoot a smaller gauge.

 

[sm]

Safety

PJR,
Excellent point.

Some folks I run with, only use 12, and 28 guns.
For the same reason PJR stated.

Others only use 20 gauge.
Not all of these folks are new shooters, some have lots of years of experience in shotguns, just shotguns are not what they do much of , or the 20 fills the niches of what they do use a shotgun for.

Some don't do shotguns at all.

It is all good.

 

[sm]

Mind Picture: Saiga in 28 gauge

It all good.

Now picture Larry Correia with a bunch of kids about so tall, with 28 ga Saigas's and Browning Buckmarks learning 3 Gun.

*grin*

I mean introducing new shooters, kids, running and gunning and blowing the stuffing out of stuffed Monsters with MHI patches on shirts.

Now would that be neater than all get out!

Gun grabbers having heart attacks...

See? I have nothing against tactical, it is all good.

Saiga needs to do a 28 ga, its for MHI kids!!

 

[plumberroy]

All I know is I have shotguns in 10,12,16,20,28,410 more than one in most of them I have been totin' a round a 28 single more than all the others combined
Roy