Should I keep working up and why? PLEASE HELP ME

[TH3180]

I need some help here guys. As many of you know I have just got into reloading 9mm to be specific. Here are the details, Montana Gold 115g FMJ R/N, Unique powder, Winchester Primers and once fired Federal Brass that was fired in my G17. The Speer Manual says 5.6 Grains on the bottom and 6.3grains max., 1.135" to 1.169" OAL. With all of this please keep in mind I am not that great of a shot yet with my 9mm.

To start I loaded a total of 60 rounds all at 1.150 OAL. 20 at 5.6 grains, 20 at 5.7 grains and 20 at 5.8 grains. I figured I would shoot 5 round clips to get a good idea of how things were going. All rounds were shot out of my G17 with a stock barrel at about 25 feet.

5.6 grains. No problems at all with firing these 20 rounds, the gun functioned like it should. There was no signs of stress on the brass. The 5 shot groups were really bad, one left, one right, one way up high and so on.

5.7 grains. No problems at all with firing these 20 rounds, the gun functioned like it should. There was no signs of stress on the brass. The groups got better but then again how much of my grouping problem is me.

5.8 grains. No problems at all with firing these 20 rounds, the gun functioned like it should. There was no signs of stress on the brass. The groups got even better. It was about the same grouping I get when I am shooting American Eagle 115g FMJ R/N. Then again when I shot the first shot out of this group I had 40 rounds under my belt for the day, I was getting into my groove.

Now that you have the history here is where I need help. 5.95 grains would be half way between min and max. Should I keep working up the load or stay at 5.7 or 5.8. Please explain to me why not just yes or no. I was thinking about doing another 20 at 5.8, 20 at 5.9 and 10 at 6.0. Now I am second guessing myself is there really a point to going higher and risking my fingers. What advantages is there to going higher. Unique says 6.3 grains on there website which is the max in the speer manual. Any help you folks can give me that would be great. I have a whole bunch of clean brass waiting to be loaded but a I am trying to take it slow and do it the right way. If there is any info I left out that would help you help me with this please speak up.
Thanks for the help,
Tim

 

[jfh]

I see no reason not to keep going--at least, based on what I see here. BUT...

In trying to 'read between the lines' of your post, I guess I am seeing a concern that, since you are approaching a MAX charge, you may be in danger of overcharging your cartridges. Is that your concern? Is your concern how accurate your charge-weighing is?

Tell us a few more details, like how you are doing the charges, and how you are weighing them. Be specific.

Are you confused about how accurate a given recipe is--because you are inexperienced at shooting (this pistol)?

Tell us a bit more--like, how are you holding the Glock when you are shooting your test groups--are you benchresting it?

Jim H.

 

[ScratchnDent]

I think that .1 grain steps are too small for initial workup of a pistol load, especially with Unique. I'd load 3 more batches of 10 rounds apiece at 5.8, 6.0. and 6.2 grains.

If it were a very fast powder like Bullseye, I might use .1 grain steps as I approached the very top of the load range.

 

[TH3180]

I see no reason not to keep going--at least, based on what I see here. BUT...

In trying to 'read between the lines' of your post, I guess I am seeing a concern that, since you are approaching a MAX charge, you may be in danger of overcharging your cartridges. Is that your concern? Is your concern how accurate your charge-weighing is?

Tell us a few more details, like how you are doing the charges, and how you are weighing them. Be specific.

Are you confused about how accurate a given recipe is--because you are inexperienced at shooting (this pistol)?

Tell us a bit more--like, how are you holding the Glock when you are shooting your test groups--are you benchresting it?

Jim H.

My first batch I weighed every charge on my scale (RCBS 5-0-5) I figured I would leave the Uniflow out of it my first batch. I was trying to keep it simple as possible. I'm not worried about the recipe or how I am putting everything together I am confident I am doing everything right. I guess what I am asking is what will I gain by continuing to up the charge? Even the lowest charge cycles the slide, with no other issues. I looked through both my Speer and Lyman manuals for the answer. The only thing I could find is to up the charge until you hit max or you start to see case stress, what ever happens first.( I very well could have missed something). I read my Speer manual three times before I made up my first load. I was shooting standing up using both hands. I have a good grip I think. I work with my hands for a living so I can put a tight grip on the gun. My groups aren't that great because I haven't had a lot of trigger time. I started shooting in March. I shot only .22lr pistols up until May when I bought my G17. I have put 260 rounds down range through my G17 and probably around 3000 rounds of .22lr down range. I know my groups will get better as I get more trigger time. I fell I have good groups with my .22lr pistols. I can get a 10 shot group down to 3/4" at 25 feet standing using both hands, a 9mm is a whole different ball game. Anything else can answer please let me know.

 

[medalguy]

You don't state whether you are working up a casual plnking load or a serious match load. If you're satisfied with the accuracy you obtained at any given load level, I would suggest you stop and use that load. If you're trying to obtain the very best accuracy possible, then continue and start narrowing the load until you again are satisfied with the accuracy.

My eyes aren't nearly what they used to be, so I'm satisfied hitting a 3 inch target at 25 meters with my handguns from an offhand position. YMMV.

 

[TH3180]

You don't state whether you are working up a casual plnking load or a serious match load. If you're satisfied with the accuracy you obtained at any given load level, I would suggest you stop and use that load. If you're trying to obtain the very best accuracy possible, then continue and start narrowing the load until you again are satisfied with the accuracy.

My eyes aren't nearly what they used to be, so I'm satisfied hitting a 3 inch target at 25 meters with my handguns from an offhand position. YMMV.

So what you are saying is you work up a load to get tighter groups. At some point the group will start to open up again, that's when you know you have gone to far and you need to back it down again. (with in the recipe of course)
I am target shooting, but no where near a serious match level of target shooting. So right now I'm wondering if I should stay around where I am at and get trigger time under my belt.
One more thing I bought some sand bag deals so I can shoot from a rest next time out.

 

[James2]

I would stick with 5.8 for a while. Load up a bunch and get some trigger time in.
As long as the gun cycles reliably and accuracy seems pretty good, the only thing you have to gain at this point is more recoil. You don't really need that until you get some more experience. Later, when your confidence in your shooting improves, you will want to experiment with loads to see if you can get a more accurate load. We all do that. It is one of the perks of reloading.

I have never found it necessary nor desirable to go to a max load. Usually there is a sweet spot below max a bit where accuracy is good. Some like to squeeze every fps they can out of the load, but that has never been my goal. I just want a load that is reliable and accurate.

Enjoy!

 

[jfh]

OK, we know a bit more...

1. One can work up a load for any number of reasons--that goal (once you have the fundamentals of reloading down a bit more) can vary. For example, I had a goal for building "replica reloads" of a popular self-defense round in which I wanted a round similar in feel--recoil--to the factory round. I didn't care about the accuracy issues (at distances of less than ten yards), nor about economy--only about a safe load (<= to a max load) and the right feel. That way I can practice for perhaps 12 cents a round, not $1.00 or more per round.

2. Typically, people reload to a) save money and b) to develop more accurate ammunition for their particular firearm.

Based on what you are telling us here, IMO you could go up to, say, 6.0 grains and see how they work for you--if they are more accurate, so much the better. At this point in your (centerfire handgun) shooting experience, it is probably as important to shoot a lot down range as it is to find "the" load.

Jim H.

 

[ArtP]

I load exactly like jfh does for my pistols. As long as accuracy is reasonable, I try to duplicate a self defense load, for practice. That means I load my pistols at book max. I reload for rifles too, but the goal there is accuracy first, which means some of my loads are 200fps below max velocity.

Ironically, lately, I have been loading 115g/9mm/Unique too, both Gold Dot bullets and FMJ bullets. Three sources list max load at 6.7. Those sources are my Hornady manual, Speer Bullets and Alliant powder. Yesterday I went out for a test fire and fired a sample of each, worked up to the full 6.7. No problems, gun felt great and accuracy was better than I am.

I guess my point is, if you're loading stricly for accuracy, try the entire range from start to max at .2 grain increments - try enough at each charge to make a meaninful sample. At least in rifles, playing wih seating depth has an accuracy affect as well. If you're practicing for self defence, once you've proven max load to be safe, stay with it.

Oh shoot - I goofed. I was loading another caliber tongiht with Unique. The 155g 9mm load @ 6.7 was with Power Pistol. However, the concept of everything I wrote still stands.

I also believe - and this is just me - that modern recipes are lawyer loads, that is they have a margin of error built in. If I'm using my thrower and happen to go .2 over book max - shot out of a modern, well reputed gun - I feel okay with that.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I would continue to up the charge on each batch until either the accuracy falls off, you reach the Max charge or you see signs of excessive pressure. You can also stop upping the charge if you feel the recoil is becoming excessive, uncomfortable or effecting your ability to shoot accurately.

When and if the accuracy falls off try to cut back .5gr and see if it improves. What I'm saying is try to zero in on the most accurate load for that pistol. If increasing the charge over 5.8gr shows no increase in accuracy I would load 5.8gr and call it the load for that Glock.

 

[k4swb]

Get Rested

First rule in testing load/gun accuracy should be, get rested.
In your case, sit down behind some kind of table and rest your arms/hands on something comfortable and get a steady sight picture. If you can get a handgun rest that's even better but just resting your hands, arms on something will help alot.
Remember, you're testing load/gun combinations so take yourself out of the equation as best you can.

 

[TH3180]

I got to go shooting today. I had 20 loads with 5.8g and 20 loads with 6.0g of powder. I really didn't notice a difference in the groups. I also didn't see any signs of over pressure. I think I will try 5.9g of powder and run with it. I don't want to over think this to much. Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I am an advocate of finding your "comfort zone" and staying there. With some experience you might want to experiment more. But you will know when that time comes. For some it's after a couple more trips to the range. For others it's a lifetime.

 

[noylj]

1) Work up in 0.3-0.5gn increments (all reloading is done to ±0.1gn).
2) All you NEED is a load that cycles your gun and gives you the accuracy you need/want. Sounds like you are already there.
3) I work up a load NOT to find max but to find the "most" accurate load.
4) I would spend more time on determining the maximum COL that will fit the magazine and feed and chamber in your gun. Also, did you verify that the bullets are tight and you aren't getting any bullet set-back? Both the 9mm and .40 will show pressure increasing sharply with any bullet set-back.
5) I find that 5.1-5.5gn Unique will produce an accurate load in many guns with a COL of 1.230".

 

[1SOW]

noylj:

5) I find that 5.1-5.5gn Unique will produce an accurate load in many guns with a COL of 1.230".

Saami max is 1.169" to ensure it will fit in any 9mm magazine.

 

[Steve C]

The point of working up is to stay safe using components that don't match the data exactly, you are using Speer data and a Montana bullet. The second reason you work the load up to to find the most reliable and accurate load for your pistol. The third reason is to maximize velocity or reach a specific velocity or power factor to use in competition that has such requirements.

You can stop at any one of these steps, I usually stop at adequate accuracy and reliability.

 

[RandyP]

I am a casual reloader and range plinker (my old eyeballs have put my days on the Army Pistol Team far behind me - lol) and I shoot for MOD (Minute of Dead) accuracy at 'average' self defense scenario distances (25 feet or less).

My loads are what reliably function, go bang every time with reasonable accuracy, and cost less. I see NO need for high power loads to kill a paper zombie at ten paces. IMHO it just wastes powder.

Were I needing to work up SD loads, super accurate loads or the like then I reckon I would experiment my keester off - lol - but I buy 1 box of factory made SD ammo that I KNOW works well for each of my pistols and practice with my reloads. In the highly -very highly- unlikely event I would actually be involved in a SD event testimonies would indicate that one never feels the recoil or even hears the shots.

I admit that every reloading forum I frequent is filled with posts that concern 'working up' a load.... but it really isn't "necessary" if you find one that works for YOU....IMHO

 

[Walkalong]

I work up fast and medium burn rate powder pistol loads going up by .2 or .3 usually, but almost always tweak it by tenths in the end. Like you said, 5.8 and 6.0 both shot equally well, so you are going to try 5.9. Makes sense to me. It may or may not do any better, but it might. I would probably try 6.1 as well, unless you are happy with the resulting groups and do not want to go up in recoil. Curiosity killed the cat though, and 6.1 might shoot lights out. Never know till you try it.

By the time you see pressure signs on the case, you are way over. Primers can give us a little clue, and I do check primers, but they are not really a very reliable way to check pressures. Staying within load book guidelines (charge weight vs bullet weight and O.A.L.) is our best way to stay out of trouble, especially for new reloaders.

 

[rfwobbly]

+1 for Walkalong.

Mr 3180 -
I will only add that if you are tweaking your load for "accuracy", then you need to be shooting from a bench, with your hand well supported. You should also be shooting at round, black targets. When you feel you are getting close to the "best" load, move the target further away and shoot another batch in 0.1gr increments.