Should I Purchase a Larger Acog for my AR-15?

[Evergreen]

Hi, I just posted a couple days ago about having a heck of a time getting my Acog zeroed in. It appears the Acog I had either has some techincal issues or perhaps was screwed up by myself desperately trying to zero it in without proper knowledge or technique. Anyhow, I fear the prism structure may be broken and tomorrow I am sending it back to Trijicon, who told me there will be about a month or so turn around time. It will be sad to lose my Acog sight, but it also has got me thinking.

There has been debate on the best magnification for Acogs used in AR rifles and I am not sure where I stand. I was wondering what people's opinions were about the best all-purpose Acog scope I should use for my LMT MRP CQB 16 in AR-15 rifle. I'm thinking that in the most realistic situations this gun will be used at ranges from 10 - 300 yards. I cannot and wouldn't even try to use this gun for benchrest marksman shooting past 300, if even that. Mostly, I will be training and shooting the gun at 100-200 yards, as well as doing tactical style training at closer range, such as draw, walk, duck, run and shoot, etc.

Right now I own the TA33R-8 mounted on a LaRue LT105 mount. Some people told me it was a better option because the smaller magnification and smaller size of scope allowed for a greater FOV. I suppose in theory this would allow the person to scan the perimeter and then acquire a target easier. For close range shooting, I can see the advantage, but for shooting farther out, I tend to find the lack of magnification a disadvantage. Considering, that I would not really think of the Acog is the best option for CQB, I have an Aimpoint Micro for that application, I am thinking I'd rather optimize my Acog for shooting at 100yd + rather than up close. As of now, I am thinking the TA33R-8 would be more ideal for CQB out to 100 or 200 yards. However, even at 100, I have a hard time at the 3x getting a good view of the target.

I really am eyeballing the TA31 and even TA55 series. I just think for the type of shooting I am doing, an extra 1x or 2x of magnification will help me a lot with accuracy. I am sure in a combat situation, hitting targets is the main priority over tight groups. However, since that is not my application, I think the larger magnifications will suit me better. I am thinking when I get my Acog back from Trijicon, I may sell it to finance purchasing the larger Acog.

I am definitely not a skilled bench or long range shooter, so that is why I am eager to hear others more knowledgeable. What is your take on the best Acog for shooting with an AR-15 at 100 -200 yards?

 

[Zerodefect]

Your existing setup is peferect for the conditions you listed. Stick with what you have. I'm picky with ACOG reticles, but aside from that, it sounds like you have the right setup.

The TA55 ACOG is useless and obsolete. Never was a good combat scope. The 1-4x Accupoint would be a good replacement. I'm more inclined to look towards the Accupoints and 1-4x Nightforce scopes for medium range work now, but the ACOGS are more durable.



Your Aimpoint T1 reddot is far superior to any scope for CQB work.

You have to have your head alighned properly with scopes of any sort otherwise your dealing with scope shadow or worse. A 1x reddot like the Aimpoint or Eotech is easier to shoot from improvised positions that you are more likely to need in a CQB situation.

It can be hard to line up your head, stock, and scope when laying sidways or curled up behind a tiny piece of cover.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I really am eyeballing the TA31 and even TA55 series.

I don't mean to be rude; but the fact that you are simulatenously looking at a TA33, TA31 and TA55 for your rifle gives me the impression that you don't know your head from your ass. And again, I don't intend that in a mean way, it is a natural enough state that I've experienced myself more than a few times.

However, until you get it sorted out how you intend to use the rifle, picking an optic for the rifle is going to be a difficult task and one likely to be frustrating for you.

The TA33 is an excellent "do-everything" optic. It is a great choice if you aren't sure what you'll be using the rifle for since it is designed to do everything OK from 0-600m.

The TA31 is also a general-purpose optic; but is optimized a little more towards the longer ranges. The short-eye relief means that it will be less useful for shooting while moving, shooting up close, and all the things that your T1 excels at. The wider field of view through the scope and the tiny bit more of magnification for target acquisition will give it an edge over the TA33; but a very minor one.

The TA55 never really caught on. It is big. It weighs a lot (about twice as much as a TA31), costs more and it only adds 1.5x magnification over the TA31. In both of the military roles it was envisioned for (Designated Marksman and Machinegun Optic) it has been replaced by other ACOGs. I'm not a big fan.

I just think for the type of shooting I am doing, an extra 1x or 2x of magnification will help me a lot with accuracy. I am sure in a combat situation, hitting targets is the main priority over tight groups. However, since that is not my application, I think the larger magnifications will suit me better.

Well, you haven't exactly explained the type of shooting you are doing. So I don't know what to tell you. If you are trying for tiny targets from the bench at the range, then you don't really need an ACOG at all. For one, you don't have a limited amount of time to range and engage targets - you are engaging targets at a known range with ample time. Two, you don't need an illuminated reticle to help the process since you have plenty of time to deal with less than ideal contrast and are unlikely to be shooting in low light. Finally, you don't need the ACOG's bomb-proof construction, waterproof abilities, etc. since you are using the optic in a way, way more forgiving environment.

From what you are describing, I think you'd probably be better off with a 1-4x, 1.5-5.5x, or 1.1-6x variable scope.

at is your take on the best Acog for shooting with an AR-15 at 100 -200 yards?

You've pretty much got that in the TA33. I think the question is probably more along the lines of "Do I need an ACOG for the type of shooting I want to do at 100-200yds?" If you want to shoot tiny groups from the bench, an ACOG can do that; but it isn't the ideal optic for it.

 

[kwelz]

TA33 and TA44 are going to be your best ACOGs. Most of the others have to many limitations.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm partial to the TA-01. it doesn't have the fiber optic tube thinger and the reticle makes more sense to me.

 

[Evergreen]

Wow, glad to hear the options about the TA55. Yeah, I was just realizing how bulky the TA55 is and I could see that would be a disadvantage for just an extra 1x of mag.

From what you are describing, I think you'd probably be better off with a 1-4x, 1.5-5.5x, or 1.1-6x variable scope.

Thanks for this advice, as I really have been thinking about going the route. However, the one caveat I forsee with training with those scopes is that if I do want to enhance my skills with an Acog, I would be trained using a different scope. Let's say all heck breaks lose and I need my Acog, yeah I know not likely, but I'd like to feel confident shooting with this optic. Also, the ruggedness and durability is always a plus. I'm definitely not trying to get competition-like accuracy with my ARs, but I thought it would be nice to have a little improvement in my groups.

don't mean to be rude; but the fact that you are simulatenously looking at a TA33, TA31 and TA55 for your rifle gives me the impression that you don't know your head from your ass.

Ok no, I really don't know about these type of optics. And, if I did, I probably wouldn't be posting on here with these type of questions. But, it's sobering and good to hear advice like this, as I know how confused I am about this subject.

My applications, will vary. As I said, I will be shooting paper on the bench at 100-200 and will be doing closer up, more tactical/standing/moving type of shooting up close. However, for the up-close stuff I will be using the aimpoint micro. If you are asking if I will be shooting at moving targets or smaller targets from a distance, these can all be possibilities, but not the most common application.

Anyway, I think the TA33R-8 may be all I need at this point. Perhaps, I can get a variable scope that I can interchange with the ACog if I intend to try to improve my accuracy more. I have my Acog mounted to a LaRue and like the ability to easily remove optics on the rail. Perhaps, I was thinking I can afford a Leupold scope or some other low mag variable scope to get a feel for it. I do like that the Acog doesn't require any adjustments and has the BDC.

Maybe, I should give it a bit more time. I thought perhaps the extra 1x mag of the other ACog models would give me a slight advantage at 100 yards or so, but maybe it is just not that significant.

 

[kwelz]

While the extra 1X is nice you lose a lot of eye relief and overall usability. This is one reason the TR24 accupoint is a nice option. Long eye relief, adjustable power and almost as durable as an ACOG. The only downside is that you have a bit more wight than SOME ACOGs.

For overall flexibility they they are pretty much impossible to beat.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'm definitely not trying to get competition-like accuracy with my ARs, but I thought it would be nice to have a little improvement in my groups.

This group was shot from the bench using a TA11 ACOG (3.5x donut reticle) and a stock trigger. Those squares are 1"x1".

Your TA33R-8 is a more capable optic in that regard since you have a chevron for an aiming point rather than the top of a round circle. Shooting small groups is more about using good fundamentals (natural point of aim, proper skeletal support) and a consistent point of aim than it is about the type of sight. Changing the type of sight may help a little; but it won't help much if you don't have the fundamentals down.

Ok no, I really don't know about these type of optics. And, if I did, I probably wouldn't be posting on here with these type of questions.

Yes, I know it is frustrating. You want good gear so you can practice; but until you do a fair amount of shooting you don't really know what gear you need. So most of us do what you and I did - buy the gear first after reading stuff on the Internet and then later realize a lot of it was unnecessary at best and sometimes actually a negative. Heck, you can search the archives here and find me going through the same thing.

I think what you really need to do is get some rounds downrange and see what works for you. Some things to think about:

1. Do you need magnification to see, acquire and identify your target? Because if you don't the T1 is probably a superior choice for you all the way out to 200yds - and you can shoot itty bitty groups with it too given enough practice.

2. Is time pressure relevant? If you are making a shot under time pressure, a highly contrasting reticle is very useful; but it may cause you to be a little slower when trying to be more precise.

3. Ranging via reticle or scope adjustment. This is really only an issue past 300yds; but if you are shooting a paper target at a known distance of 400yds, you've got all the time in the world to dial in your sight dope. If you are shooting on a timed exposure target at an unknown range, the BDC reticle is fast and helpful.

4. Ruggedness - most scopes these days are fairly rugged. The ACOG takes that to an insane level. While I definitely understand the appeal of something that is simple to use and doesn't break, you pay a lot extra to have that durability. I've got a buddy I shoot with who bought a Leupold 1-4x shotgun scope for $299. We do a lot of shooting together and so far his scope survives everything my ACOG survives. If we were riding around with rifles strapped to the outside of a vehicle and an IED went off, having the ACOG would probably be an advantage; but for most practical shooting, not so much.

And the Accupoint is worth looking at - made by the same company, same illuminated reticle, not quite ACOG-levels of ruggedness; but probably tougher than the aforementioned Leupold shotgun scope. In terms of a good general purpose optic and great value, the Accupoint is tough to beat.

However, since you've already got the TA33R-8, I'd just shoot it some more, compare it to other sights and figure out what works best for you.

 

[TonyAngel]

Evergreen, which ACOGs have you actually had in your hands?

First, who ever told you that a TA33 would offer a wider field of view was mistaken. The TA33 line of scopes has about the narrowest field of view that I've ever seen. The eye relief and eye box are pretty forgiving though. I liked the scope and it did well for those that were used to shooting with both eyes open.

When choosing an ACOG, is isn't, for the most part, about the magnification. In most of their models, the magnification falls someplace between 3X and 4X, so there isn't much of a difference there. Where the biggest difference lies is in the eye relief, from a use perspective.

Ahhh, the only point I'm really trying to make is that you shouldn't make a blind choice when it comes to an ACOG. Try to get your hands on a few and check them out. Some of the ACOGs have such short eye relief and such a narrow eye box that shooting the rifle from any place other than an off hand position can be uncomfortable or difficult.

Personally, after having tried half a dozen or so different ACOGs, I've decided that they weren't for me and opted for more conventional variable power optics. The only ACOG that I have left is a little TA44 1.5X. No more red dots for me.

 

[Zak Smith]

The TA11 is better in practice than the other ACOGs, in my opinion. Its "eye box" is much more flexible than the 4x+ models, and it has a wider field of view than the small ACOGs.



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[Effigy]

I never realized how short the eye relief was on ACOGs. 1.5" on a 4x32mm? That's nuts! My 1-4x24mm CMR has twice that, at a third of the price. Granted the ACOG has other advantages, but I'd expect better eye relief on a premium fixed-power.

 

[Zak Smith]

Better does not always mean longer. In the case of 1.5", it probably does though. Many conventional riflescopes have too much eye relief to fit well on the AR-15 platform.

 

[Effigy]

I suppose that's true. Recoil isn't as much of a concern with the 5.56 either, so having your eye closer isn't as big of a deal. I generally prefer around 3" eye relief though.

 

[Zak Smith]

With 3" of eye relief, a standard NTCH head position requires a mount that places the ocular lens approx 1.6" forward of the charging handle.

 

[Evergreen]

Sorry, been away for couple days. But, I just wanted to say I have been given some very good insight here. I agree with Bartholomew that many people invest heck of lot of money in fancy equipment that they never may use. I am guilty of that a bit. E.g., I have stopped shooting .308, because my DPMS LR-308 24" SS BBl requires match grade ammo which I can not afford. I've got a beautiful Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 scope just sitting in my safe. It's probably overkill for an AR, but I do plan on getting a long range rifle one day, so I don't mind hanging on to it.

As far as scopes are concerned, I think the Accupoint may be a good option. However, what's the point of using a scope that I may never actually use. I am not a bench or champion shooter, basically I train myself to use ARs for real-life situations that may occur. I am planning on doing most of my training at 50 yards, running/walking, standing, crouching, etc. In a real life scenario, the targets won't stay still and why the heck would I use an AR-15 as a long range marskman rifle, if other options exist? Nonetheless, I would like to be as proficient as possible with bench shooting it at 100-200 yards and I think the Acog would be a decent enough scope for that.

I guess I was just thinking it would be nice to have a bit more magnification, but it will be something I should adapt to with practice. Actually, I don't mind the eye relief being so close. Somehow, like Zak said, it seems more natural and I don't have to put the scope so forward on the gun.

The TA11 does sound like a better option, but I have the TA33, so I best just keep it and do my best to train with it. In all honesty, zeroing the d*mn thing in has been the biggest dilemma. I can zero in my other scopes with some effort, but this one has really proven to be a pain. My scope is now in transit to Trijicon, so I probably won't see it for another month . I'm looking forward to getting it back and I will follow the zeroing procedures that people mentioned in the other thread.

One thing I will say Bartholomew, is why train with equipment you never use because it is cheaper? I still think training with equipment you plan on using is best option. And, even though I bought lots of guns and equipment, most of it, except for my .308, is being used at the range. For example, after purchasing a S&W 460v, I have now become more proficient in big-bore shooting. I actually can group 44mag now, whereas before the purchase I was recoil shy. The .460 cured my .44 recoil sensitivity . And, as far as practicality, I will be hiking in the backwoods this Summer in black bear country.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

One thing I will say Bartholomew, is why train with equipment you never use because it is cheaper?

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying buy cheap equipment you'll never use. I am saying it is best to first buy the absolute minimum necessary to train and then add equipment as you identify the need. Most of us buy equipment based on what we think we will need and then when we start using it, we can run into some unpleasant realities. The other bonus of training is you'll get the opportunity to try other people's gear for free and the skills you learn are transferrable to any rifle.

And FYI, the TA11 and TA33 have almost the same eye relief. The TA31 is the one with the short eye relief.

 

[Evergreen]

I think I understand you better now.. Well, I got what I got, haven't bought many more gadgets in a couple years now, so I will try to improve my skills with what I got.. I think people here have sobered me up though about upgrading the Acog. The TA33 should do everything I need. The only other optic/sights I am going to buy are some of those Troy industry flip-up iron sights. I think it would be nice to complement my Acog or Aimpoint with a set of the backup irons. I would really like to improve my skills shooting irons, because optics do fail, time to time.