SHTF AR (kinda different)

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bratch

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I'm really not intrigued by the rifle or the round but the fact that it is standard GI and that lots of LE agencies use them keeps pulling me in a little. Only because if one were to truely need it in a big SHTF parts, ammo, etc could be "borrowed" from many places.

Anybody else feel this way? Bought one because of this?
 
This is definately something to consider. I am turned off by the lack of lethality of the 5.56 round. I like the accuracy....I am at a cross roads on a decision between the M14 and AR.

Maybe a AR10?
 
Join the club.

I have about decided on my feature list for my "serious" rifles. My Cetme covers almost everything but one.

And yet the darned AR is still talking to me saying "everybody else is, the water is nice..."
 
There are free US Govt. maintenance and utilization guides available for the AR rifle. Parts are readily aquired. Theres prolly a more than a few crates of 5.56 within 100 miles of most THRers.

Properly applied, 5.56 will make mutant zombies DRT.
 
Properly applied, 5.56 will make mutant zombies DRT.
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The real question is this...what would you say the maximum terminal range for the 5.56 is, say out of the 20" barrel is? Not just putting holes in paper, but knocking down BG's?
 
You also need to remember that the military is limited to Ball and Sierra Match Kings in their M16s. We as civilians have almost infinate choices everything from soft point (Hornady TAP) to Ballistic tip (60gr V-MAX) to SS109 green tip. I think that the Heavy TAP and V-MAX ammo would do a number on soft targets will the FMJ and SS109 will deal with soft armor.
 
the fact that it is standard GI and that lots of LE agencies use them keeps pulling me in a little. Only because if one were to truely need it in a big SHTF parts, ammo, etc could be "borrowed" from many places.
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Also consider that aside from LEO and .mil use, the AR widely used as a varmint gun, and is "the" gun for competition these days. There are a few in every gun shop, there are a bunch of them in every town. Plenty of .223 or 5.56 ammo is available at your local Walmart or sporting goods store.

Aside from that, it's light, accurate, has practically no recoil and easy to shoot. You just have to use the rifle's advantages and respect it's limitations. It's a great gun for self defense out to 100-200 yards, to arm somebody with only minimal rifle training or to equip sombody with would have difficulty handing the heft and recoil of a .308. It's not a good gun for long distance work or to shoot through cover.

Maybe it's not your primary rifle, but the rifle and it's ammo are light and handy to carry. The 16" carbines are especially handy. Just keep it simple, most AR accessories are unnecessary for self defense. I wouldn't feel unarmed with an AR carbine, iron sights and 300 rounds of M193 in USGI mags.
 
Of course you could always get two rifles. I have a 22 year old M1A and just thursday got my M4gery. The M4 is good because of the light weight and ease of deployment.

I'm considering it as my HD weapon due to the lessened penetration potential in a house vs large caliber handguns.

Besides, they are just fun to shoot. :evil:
 
The real question is this...what would you say the maximum terminal range for the 5.56 is, say out of the 20" barrel is? Not just putting holes in paper, but knocking down BG's?
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Check out the charts on this page. Optimumly, with 55gr. M193 or M855 you're looking at around 100 yards, with 75gr-77gr Match HP, you're looking at around 200 yards with a 20" barrel (and 1/7 twist to stabilize the heavy bullets). This chart makes me favor the 20" barrel over the 16".

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=189353
 
For an bona-fide SHTF scenario, I can't too excited about being able to FIX an AR when the need arises (with those myriad of guns and parts, in and around my general geographic location). During really bad times and situations, the preponderance of MY excitement will come from knowing I won't have to deal with that weapon's faults, or its cartridge in my primary setup.

Bratch.......where there's smoke, there's fire. I'm going with the proven major caliber, and historically reliable stuff.

Stay "un-intrigued" bud. :)
 
"The real question is this...what would you say the maximum terminal range for the 5.56 is, say out of the 20" barrel is? Not just putting holes in paper, but knocking down BG's?"

I wouldn't say that is the real question: I have a couple questions that I think would be real questions before this one comes up.
First question: How far away can you realistically hit someone with whatever rifle or carbine you choose. This answer takes experience, and honesty. Experience because it isn't just a guess: you need to go out and see for yourself. And honesty to accept the result of that test.
Get a IDPA or IPSC silhouette target and place it at progressively farther ranges and see just how good you really are. Keep in mind that this isn't an exercise in benchrest shooting. This is to be done from practical field shooting postions. I suggest positions that don't use any kind of rest: simply because you can't count on always being able to use a rest.
Now, take these results and factor in stuff like, the target may be shooting back at you. His friends might be shooting back at you. He will probably be moving. You will probably be moving. You will probably not be on a flat, clean rifle range in nice weather. He will probably be wearing clothing that breaks up his outline. You probably won't be able to see his whole body. He will be using cover and concealment. You will not know the exact range to the target....................................................
Then take your honest answer and we can talk about what a realistic range might be.
Second, we can discuss what you envision you using the rifle for: personal defense ? Hunting ? Obviously, there arn't a whole lot of good legitimate reasons for shooting at someone at 800 yards for a civilian.
As part of the discussion of what you envision yourself using the rifle for, we can also try to pin down what percentage of the time you expect to use it for each of the various things. For example, should you tailor your choice of rifle for long range shooting if that might only be a remote possiblility, or should you tailor your choice of rifle primarily for what you antipate yourself using it for the most ?
 
Only because if one were to truely need it in a big SHTF parts, ammo, etc could be "borrowed" from many places.
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This, to me, is why I bought a .223 bolt action. I get the ammo availability of 223/5.56x45 but in a package that more familiar and comfortable and affordable to me. I wanted to have access to the 'standard' NATO round, but not if it meant getting a non-sporting arm that cost more than anything else I have.
 
I wouldnt know where to start,alot of info has already been uncovered here in previous replies.

I've always been a .308 or large bore weapon shooter, just this past year I've read up on the 223/556 & decided to make it my primary SHTF rifle & carbin.

I alway thought of this caliber as a pea shooter,but its about bullet choice, also shot placement, even a wounded can prove to be more effective, it will take one or two people to carry this wounded person.

I love the M4 carbin,it is plenty accurate enough,but decided to also try my hands with a 20" heavy barrel

Im no expert on scopes,but wanted a decent varmint scope, that could also be used a s aspotting scope,so I went with a 6X24X42,Aimpoint on my carbin has served its purpose nicely.

Here a few old pix of my set up,have added a ARMS40 rear sight on the carbin,flip ups and kill flash on the scope since pix was taking.

Bushmaster 20" ,found out a mil-dot master works great with a little practice.
20scoped.jpg




M4gery
TG3.jpg



I sighted my rifles in , using SS109,use alot of wolf ammo for plinking and trigger time.

TG
 
For example, should you tailor your choice of rifle for long range shooting if that might only be a remote possiblility, or should you tailor your choice of rifle primarily for what you antipate yourself using it for the most ?
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Excellent question.
 
One of the beautiful things about the AR15 is that it be changed very quickly from a CQB rifle to a Designated Marksman Rifle in about 60 seconds. I've got two AR's and they seem to compliment each other well. Where one begins to loose it's effectiveness the other steps in.
If you are in terrain that allows you to engage at extended range all the better I'd love to be able to get rid of the enemy prior to them getting me into their effective range.
The top rifle is a JP upper on Bushmaster lower w/ JP trigger topped with a IOR 2.5-10x40mm MP* scope, capable of keeping 1/2" groups at 100yds. The scope allows me to find and identify targets at longer ranges and in low light conditions. I can drop the scope down to 2.5x and do OK in a CQB environment.
The bottom rifle is my M4gery w/ EOTech. It shines in CQB work under 100yds but is capable of 4 hits out of 6 shoots on a IPSC target at 300yds firing as fast as I can reacquire the target.
If you hit a target at 400yds even if it isn't terminal you have definately slowed them down. Trigger control and shot placement go a long way.
 

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While the ability to find replacement parts for your gun isnt a bad thing, I cannot imagine a realistic scenario where you will be able to scrounge on the battlefield and do gunsmithing. I think it is far more important to pick a platform and caliber that makes you feel comfortable, and practice with the gun until it feels like an extension of your body.

I like the ar15, and am not crazy about the .223 round but will use it. The ar15 has inexpensive and plentiful magazines, numerous accessories and is low recoil while being easy to learn. Ammo is certainly cheap and plentiful and all these reasons make it a good choice, but its not the only choice. I feel as well armed with an ar as I do with my mosin m44 or another bolt action or semi rifle in my hands. Pick a gun, and learn with it dont worry about what the military or federal agencies are using.
 
Well, every CHP car here in CA is a GREAT source for spares, most carry M-16A2s (some with the auto sears replaced albit.)

If I had to grab a gun with a glow in the sky, it would be an AR. However, our fine state has decided we can only be trusted with the SU-16. At least it uses the same mags, and fires the same cartridge. :p.
 
I think there are a lot of good reasons for getting a AR. Lightweight, accurate, low recoil, cheap ammo.

But parts and ammo in a SHTF scenerio?? Not one of them.

Really, if you end up finding a load of 5.56 ammo, there is probably a rifle attached to it. And if you need parts for a rifle, why not just take the entire rifle?

Buy whatever rifle you prefer to use, and practice with that. Use any opportunity to learn other rifles on the off chance that you have an opportunity to acquire one.

I.G.B.
 
Really, if you end up finding a load of 5.56 ammo, there is probably a rifle attached to it. And if you need parts for a rifle, why not just take the entire rifle?
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Exactly. I like AR's, but if things got bad enough for me to be scavenging LEO or Military ammo/parts, there would be a whole lot of LEO/Military M16/M4s lying around anyways.
 
I am turned off by the lack of lethality of the 5.56 round.
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Most of the experts agree that the 5.56 NATO round is more lethal at short to medium range (300 meters or less) than the 7.62 NATO.

Dr Martin Fackler is the most respected expert in the field, and he recommends the 5.56 NATO.
 
g56, any attempt at dispensing factual advice from people that have first hand knowlege of anything are not welcome on the internet. The internet is reserved for BS and speculation.
 
Bratch, I've given your question much thought over the past couple of years, and I've decided to buy a DPMS Panther Lite. I also am not crazy about the .223 round (I plan to buy a 22-250 for a varmint gun), but I believe a person should have a variety of calibers available in a SHTF situation. It may be unrealistic to scavenge parts in a battlefield scenario, but I bet there will be a lot of ammo scavenging going on. If I need something stronger, I always have my .30-06 bolt action.

Using this same logic I plan to pick up a .308 (probably a BAR Lightweight that I will also use for deer hunting) and an AK 47. With that collection, I should have at least one gun capable of chambering any caliber of ammo I run across.
 
Most of the experts agree that the 5.56 NATO round is more lethal at short to medium range (300 meters or less) than the 7.62 NATO.
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That might be true for military ammo, but .308 hunting bullets will be FAR more lethal than any .223 bullets.

That's why, in many places, FMJ is illegal for hunting, and .223 is illegal for deer hunting.
 
IMO, the only BS and speculation about which of our debated rounds will punch through things, and actually get their target (under realistic conditions) will come from the AR contingent.
 
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