sm
member
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SHTF Pistol grip pump "with forend grip"
- Thread starter chetrogers
- Start date
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Gordon
Member
"Some level of proficiency can be attained with this, but it'll take enough time, talent and cash to get there that if similar were applied to efforts with a standard stocked shotgun, would make the shooter absolutely deadly.
If someone ever comes after me with a shotgun and malice aforethought, I hope and pray they're toting the very shotgun shown.
Real world results and tools for the real world....."
I thought I heard the 'Word of G-d' in church today, but here it is for real!
If someone ever comes after me with a shotgun and malice aforethought, I hope and pray they're toting the very shotgun shown.
Real world results and tools for the real world....."
I thought I heard the 'Word of G-d' in church today, but here it is for real!
Smoke
Member
I can make allowances for a full stock with a pistol grop, they most definitely have an application. I would not put a pistol grip fore-end on his or any gun.
Careful there. I think you'll find you are little off base. Dave, Correia, SM, myself and countless others have tried just about every variation of shotgun.
With Dave it is his vocation and his advocation. Correia competes heavily and knows his business. SM has just been around too long
Me? I just like to play. I love shotguns, all most all of them. And I've had teh good fortune to have a little training in their use as well. Talked with many far more knowledgebale than myslef (not gun board mall-ninjas either).
And have tried for myself what works and what doesn't.
And I beleive that number is overly optimistic. I consider my ideal shotgun to be an "under 50 yrd weapon". Thats with full stock and rifle sights (ghost ring if you prefer)
sm
member
Smoke,
To quote someone I respect, Denny Hansen : Bite me
I have probably spilled more shot than some will ever shoot.
I've probably killed more vacuum cleaners too...live primers are a killer for sure
To quote someone I respect, Denny Hansen : Bite me
I have probably spilled more shot than some will ever shoot.
I've probably killed more vacuum cleaners too...live primers are a killer for sure
Denny Hansen
Member
I'd be proud to and stand in for Dave, even with my meager abilities. If I lose to a PGO only shotgun I'll buy dinner and give the winner his choice of over a dozen different pistol grip styles--I have a large box full that folks have taken off and gone back to a full stock after taking shotgun courses.
Actually I'm in Arizona, not Florida, if that helps at all.
Denny
Actually I'm in Arizona, not Florida, if that helps at all.
Denny
I think we do this one about once a month.
I mock PGO shotguns. I full and freely admit to doing so. I've been called nasty names via PMs because of it. That's cool. But I can assure you that some of us here have just a teensy bit of shotgun experience and we aren't just talking out of our butts.
If I used a PGO and shot it like I shot it like I shoot my other guns I would have a bad case of carpal tunnel.
As Dave said, you can get good with one, but if you invest the same effort into a regular shotgun, you will be amazing.
Why is the ultimate shortness so valuable in your home? Who does more room clearing than anybody? SWAT teams. How many SWAT guys do you see with stockless subguns or ARs? Right... Zero. Sure, there are times when a PGO is a good thing to have. Door breaching. You need compactness. You don't need to really aim it or control it. Some really harsh cases of having to store it. Or maybe just to use as a plinking toy. Other than that I can't think of anything they are good for.
I mock PGO shotguns. I full and freely admit to doing so. I've been called nasty names via PMs because of it. That's cool. But I can assure you that some of us here have just a teensy bit of shotgun experience and we aren't just talking out of our butts.
If I used a PGO and shot it like I shot it like I shoot my other guns I would have a bad case of carpal tunnel.
As Dave said, you can get good with one, but if you invest the same effort into a regular shotgun, you will be amazing.
Why is the ultimate shortness so valuable in your home? Who does more room clearing than anybody? SWAT teams. How many SWAT guys do you see with stockless subguns or ARs? Right... Zero. Sure, there are times when a PGO is a good thing to have. Door breaching. You need compactness. You don't need to really aim it or control it. Some really harsh cases of having to store it. Or maybe just to use as a plinking toy. Other than that I can't think of anything they are good for.
Marshall
Member
I would rather be faced by the guy with this gun..............
Than be faced by the guy with this one.............
Than be faced by the guy with this one.............
It's funny, you anti-pgo people just say it's bad w/o any real fact. Only your opinion. Then you get uppity when a pro-pgo person expresses his point of view. What? Are we supposed to take your opinion for fact.
It was said that the PGO has it's place, but you guys don't even want to give it that. In my apartment, I would rather have a PGO that a full length for defense.
In a tactical sense, if I have to move around a corner, and I don't know what's on the other side... which gun do I want in my hands? A 50" long barrel hunting shotgun? Or a 27" PGO? I'd rather have the shorter, more manuverable gun in my hands. This isn't hunting...
It was said that the PGO has it's place, but you guys don't even want to give it that. In my apartment, I would rather have a PGO that a full length for defense.
In a tactical sense, if I have to move around a corner, and I don't know what's on the other side... which gun do I want in my hands? A 50" long barrel hunting shotgun? Or a 27" PGO? I'd rather have the shorter, more manuverable gun in my hands. This isn't hunting...
sm
member
Many of us have HAD to use a PGO in teaching, taking a training class or whatever.
YES I was ( in no minced words) "instructed" to keep a PGO SG in my vehicle. I just added another Full stocked , 20" bbl SG to my trunk. Hey the "required one" was in the trunk - nothing said I had to actually use the darn thing. I carried the Full size into my Hotel / Motel rooms at night.
Yep I have also hidden a PGO shotgun in say a bathroom, didn't like the darn thing, but since the price was right ( free) I put it in the restroom. then again I was going to most likely grab the model 66 with full bore .357 rds hidden in the restroom before grabbing the PGO.
I Have yet to see anyone take anyone up on the Challenges. I have yet to hear Awerbuck or anyone else suggest a PGO, and I doubt if showing up to a Awerbuck class with a PGO as the only shotgun to use would go over very well.
I have come to the conclusion I would rather be "wrong, old fashioned, a PITA ..." or whatever I am perceived to be, and KNOW darn well what I can do with a Wood&Blue FULL stocked Shotgun , Bone stock mind you - no mag extensions, no sidesaddles, no Surefire... I have put easily TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND rds through. IN 12 gauge Alone. We won't get into the 20 ga, 28 ga, or .410.
I understand the concerns for "close quarters". This is a TRAINING problem.
Just like a person that carries a "mouse gun" because they always have it with them.
TRAINING and proper equipment allows the same person to carry a REAL Gun, with the proper belt and holster all the time as well.
Whatever...I have the right to be wrong and I also have the right to use a full stock.
Folks have the right to use whatever - however they want. So be it.
YES I was ( in no minced words) "instructed" to keep a PGO SG in my vehicle. I just added another Full stocked , 20" bbl SG to my trunk. Hey the "required one" was in the trunk - nothing said I had to actually use the darn thing. I carried the Full size into my Hotel / Motel rooms at night.
Yep I have also hidden a PGO shotgun in say a bathroom, didn't like the darn thing, but since the price was right ( free) I put it in the restroom. then again I was going to most likely grab the model 66 with full bore .357 rds hidden in the restroom before grabbing the PGO.
I Have yet to see anyone take anyone up on the Challenges. I have yet to hear Awerbuck or anyone else suggest a PGO, and I doubt if showing up to a Awerbuck class with a PGO as the only shotgun to use would go over very well.
I have come to the conclusion I would rather be "wrong, old fashioned, a PITA ..." or whatever I am perceived to be, and KNOW darn well what I can do with a Wood&Blue FULL stocked Shotgun , Bone stock mind you - no mag extensions, no sidesaddles, no Surefire... I have put easily TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND rds through. IN 12 gauge Alone. We won't get into the 20 ga, 28 ga, or .410.
I understand the concerns for "close quarters". This is a TRAINING problem.
Just like a person that carries a "mouse gun" because they always have it with them.
TRAINING and proper equipment allows the same person to carry a REAL Gun, with the proper belt and holster all the time as well.
Whatever...I have the right to be wrong and I also have the right to use a full stock.
Folks have the right to use whatever - however they want. So be it.
carebear
Member
It isn't hunting, it's hitting; and it isn't just opinion, it's test after test by shooter after shooter.
All other things being equal, you with a standard stocked shotgun will shoot better in any conceivable combat situation than you will with a PGO.
All other things being equal, you with a standard stocked shotgun will shoot better in any conceivable combat situation than you will with a PGO.
I don't understand what the argument is about here?
I can't beleive anyone would suggest that a pistol grip shotgun is a better weapon than a standard stock shotgun is 99.9999999 percent of the time.....but I don't understand why anyone would object to a persons choice of a pgo if they are well trained at using it and there is a real "open space" problem.......Let's for argument sake take the full length shotgun out of the equasion and put your hand gun of choice up against a pgo shotgun in a small 2 or 3 room apt.
What would you choose?
I'm not trying to be a tough guy or anything but do you guys really find pgo shotguns THAT hard to handle at short distances?....let's say 10 to 20 ft?....It's not that long ago that I got into shotgunning yet I have absolutely no problem completely evaporating a pumpkin at those distances?
Again...I'm not trying to be a wise guy but but doesn't anyone else see the pgo shotgun as a formidable "home defense"...oops!...."small apt defense" gun IF you are confident and proficiant at using it?
I can't beleive anyone would suggest that a pistol grip shotgun is a better weapon than a standard stock shotgun is 99.9999999 percent of the time.....but I don't understand why anyone would object to a persons choice of a pgo if they are well trained at using it and there is a real "open space" problem.......Let's for argument sake take the full length shotgun out of the equasion and put your hand gun of choice up against a pgo shotgun in a small 2 or 3 room apt.
What would you choose?
I'm not trying to be a tough guy or anything but do you guys really find pgo shotguns THAT hard to handle at short distances?....let's say 10 to 20 ft?....It's not that long ago that I got into shotgunning yet I have absolutely no problem completely evaporating a pumpkin at those distances?
Again...I'm not trying to be a wise guy but but doesn't anyone else see the pgo shotgun as a formidable "home defense"...oops!...."small apt defense" gun IF you are confident and proficiant at using it?
carebear
Member
I, for one, just don't see it having much of a niche at all.
I haven't yet come up with a close quarters situation in military training or dinking around the house where I couldn't maneuver a stocked, short barrel shotgun (18.5" bbl) just fine.
Assuming I absolutely couldn't work my Mossberg, I would rather have a handgun for speed of use, retainability, ammo capacity and ability to use the sights and quick follow-up shots over the over-sized, under-capacitied, two hand-requiring PGO.
Where you need a long gun the PGO makes a second-rate long gun. Where you need a handgun a PGO is a second rate handgun.
Given my training and experience, I just don't see any thing a PGO can do something else can't do better.
I haven't yet come up with a close quarters situation in military training or dinking around the house where I couldn't maneuver a stocked, short barrel shotgun (18.5" bbl) just fine.
Assuming I absolutely couldn't work my Mossberg, I would rather have a handgun for speed of use, retainability, ammo capacity and ability to use the sights and quick follow-up shots over the over-sized, under-capacitied, two hand-requiring PGO.
Where you need a long gun the PGO makes a second-rate long gun. Where you need a handgun a PGO is a second rate handgun.
Given my training and experience, I just don't see any thing a PGO can do something else can't do better.
Zach S
Member
To the best of my knowledge, there's no such thing as a magazine extension for a Mossberg because of the barrel/mag tube is set up. IIRC the 18.5" 500 and 590 hold 5+1, the 20" 500 holds 7+1, and the 20" 590 holds 8+1. Pick one. Come to think of it, I dont know if they make a 18" 590... I seem to remember someone here owning an 18.5" 590A1, but dont remember seeng them on Mossberg website while I was in the market. I use a 20" 590.
PGO SGs suck. JMO.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Justang, the regulars here comprise centuries of accrued real world experience with all kinds of shotguns. Few of us have anything positive at all to say about shotguns with only a PG.
Anyone can have an opinion. Trouble is, only informed opinions are worthy. The people with the most experience here are nigh unanimous in preferring regular stocks for fighting.
And after 5 years, not one PG fan has seen fit to take up my challenge. I rest my case....
Anyone can have an opinion. Trouble is, only informed opinions are worthy. The people with the most experience here are nigh unanimous in preferring regular stocks for fighting.
And after 5 years, not one PG fan has seen fit to take up my challenge. I rest my case....
walking arsenal
Member
I said i would, but someone has to come here, i cant afford to drive all the way to were ever the heck it is you reside.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannddddd ive said it once if not a million, just cause it works for me or you doesnt mean it works for someone else or his/her aplication.
although i agree full stock is the best but not the only way to go.
bleehhh. didnt we just leave this party?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannddddd ive said it once if not a million, just cause it works for me or you doesnt mean it works for someone else or his/her aplication.
although i agree full stock is the best but not the only way to go.
bleehhh. didnt we just leave this party?
sm
member
I flipped a coin
Heads :
<Don Meredith voice> Turn out the lights , the party's over...
Tails:
Denny, old buddy old pal ...Lawdog, Jeff White, Erik Gelhaus, Mr. Rich Lucibella...somebody that can get Mr. Awerbuck to send us HIS take on PGO - I for one would be most appreciative to know. Granted we have heard from many folks that have training, that do training and have seen the elephants. Perhaps another input from Mr. Awerbuck would settle this.
Any other Well Respected Trainers / Instructors are welcome as well.
TAILS won the toss .
Here is MY deal. One of the responsiblilties of THR/ TFL is that of responsible firearms. WE have members and we have Lurkers; we also have folks that come to THR/ TFL from doing a search through Google or Teoma. Folks from all over the globe I might add. Some have restrictions on what they can and cannot have as far as firearms, training and such.
So ME being me prefers to keep all this in mind when folks come here to learn.
Yeah - I know , I have been called crazy before - and will likely be so again.
Heads :
<Don Meredith voice> Turn out the lights , the party's over...
Tails:
Denny, old buddy old pal ...Lawdog, Jeff White, Erik Gelhaus, Mr. Rich Lucibella...somebody that can get Mr. Awerbuck to send us HIS take on PGO - I for one would be most appreciative to know. Granted we have heard from many folks that have training, that do training and have seen the elephants. Perhaps another input from Mr. Awerbuck would settle this.
Any other Well Respected Trainers / Instructors are welcome as well.
TAILS won the toss .
Here is MY deal. One of the responsiblilties of THR/ TFL is that of responsible firearms. WE have members and we have Lurkers; we also have folks that come to THR/ TFL from doing a search through Google or Teoma. Folks from all over the globe I might add. Some have restrictions on what they can and cannot have as far as firearms, training and such.
So ME being me prefers to keep all this in mind when folks come here to learn.
Yeah - I know , I have been called crazy before - and will likely be so again.
carebear
Member
So you aren't going to lock it?
You're blowin' my average sm.
I hate to feel like I'm piling on a guy. So to be clear, my opinions on everything but politics and religion are just that, opinions.
On politics and religion I am, of course, speaking directly from Olympus.
You're blowin' my average sm.
I hate to feel like I'm piling on a guy. So to be clear, my opinions on everything but politics and religion are just that, opinions.
On politics and religion I am, of course, speaking directly from Olympus.
sm
member
Oh - Okay.
AFTER we get a Reply from Awerbuck or similar....LOCK this thread.
I hate to mess up carebear's average.
AFTER we get a Reply from Awerbuck or similar....LOCK this thread.
I hate to mess up carebear's average.
carebear
Member
That's out of line too.
There've been PLENTY of good reasons why the PGO is second rate all round, and that any supposed advantages it may have are all theoretical not actual.
It isn't "elitism" to give a knowledgeable opinion. For any given topic some here people have "been there, done that" in the really real world. One is usually better served to accept their offered knowledge graciously, even if you disagree.
When there is an almost uniform opinion on PGO's, from people with a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences, when no reputable shooting school I'm aware of recommends them in any way, shape or form for any reason, when even the people who like them for at least fun say they don't match up against a standard stock for real world use, that hardly smacks of "elitism."
Sounds more like as close to gospel truth as one is likely to get.
Drop the martyr act.
There've been PLENTY of good reasons why the PGO is second rate all round, and that any supposed advantages it may have are all theoretical not actual.
It isn't "elitism" to give a knowledgeable opinion. For any given topic some here people have "been there, done that" in the really real world. One is usually better served to accept their offered knowledge graciously, even if you disagree.
When there is an almost uniform opinion on PGO's, from people with a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences, when no reputable shooting school I'm aware of recommends them in any way, shape or form for any reason, when even the people who like them for at least fun say they don't match up against a standard stock for real world use, that hardly smacks of "elitism."
Sounds more like as close to gospel truth as one is likely to get.
Drop the martyr act.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
And around we go again- ya gotta love it.
Best real world living example of the utility (lack of, that is) of PG-only shotguns I know of is a fellow by the name of Reginald Denny. Remember him? Truck driver type, LA riots post Rodney King deal? I only saw the footage once before the spin doctors yanked it. Denny, dragged out of his truck and beaten to a pulp, lying in the street unconscious and unmoving while a young man dances up with his Mossberg Cruiser PGO and lets go at Denny from fifteen feet or so.
Anyone else here remember seeing that videotape?
Well, Denny is still kicking, and was unwounded by shotgun pellets I might add. And his assailant got charged but it was reduced to some stupid 'firing into a vehicle' sort of nonsense. But it was all on tape and I saw it, even if only once. Parker (from what I could see) had homicidal intent and wasn't shooting at any cement truck- he was trying to 'do' Denny. But that stupid PG that Mossberg insists on using on their own guns (while they sell a perfectly useful one that fits 870s and Winchesters, that is curved like the PG portion of a regular stock) indexed the gun so that Parker killed a lot of asphalt and that was all.
Good thing for Denny... .
Here's a clip or two, just as a bit of proof I am not hallucinating:
========================================
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:2244379&refid=ink_puballtnews&skeyword=&teaser=
James Bolden
Los Angeles Sentinel
05-05-1994
Final Defendant Tried in LA's Worst Civil Unrest.
By JAMES BOLDEN
Staff Writer
Lance Jerome Parker, the last of the so called LA 4+ defendants, was acquitted Monday on charges that he fired a shotgun at trucker Reginald Denny during the April 29, 1992 violence at the intersection of Florence and Normandie.
>snip
=========================================
http://www.mndaily.com/daily/gopher-archives/1993/05/28/NAT28.STO.txt
A judge in Los Angeles, Calif., dismissed two felony charges Thursday
against a man accused of firing a shotgun at beating victim Reginald
Denny's truck at the start of the 1992 riots.
Superior Court Judge Michael Tynan ruled that prosecutors failed to
present adequate evidence against Lance Jerome Parker on two counts
of attempt to burn.
He still faces two counts of discharge of a firearm with gross
negligence, shooting at an unoccupied vehicle, assault with a firearm
and shooting at an occupied vehicle. He faces a 15-year jail term if
convicted.
========================================
I don't think anyone here is saying that PGO shotguns are stupid or utterly useless. But for most folk in most situations they lack the utility of a full stocked shotgun, unless the shooter works a lot harder and a lot longer at becoming proficient.
lpl/nc
Best real world living example of the utility (lack of, that is) of PG-only shotguns I know of is a fellow by the name of Reginald Denny. Remember him? Truck driver type, LA riots post Rodney King deal? I only saw the footage once before the spin doctors yanked it. Denny, dragged out of his truck and beaten to a pulp, lying in the street unconscious and unmoving while a young man dances up with his Mossberg Cruiser PGO and lets go at Denny from fifteen feet or so.
Anyone else here remember seeing that videotape?
Well, Denny is still kicking, and was unwounded by shotgun pellets I might add. And his assailant got charged but it was reduced to some stupid 'firing into a vehicle' sort of nonsense. But it was all on tape and I saw it, even if only once. Parker (from what I could see) had homicidal intent and wasn't shooting at any cement truck- he was trying to 'do' Denny. But that stupid PG that Mossberg insists on using on their own guns (while they sell a perfectly useful one that fits 870s and Winchesters, that is curved like the PG portion of a regular stock) indexed the gun so that Parker killed a lot of asphalt and that was all.
Good thing for Denny... .
Here's a clip or two, just as a bit of proof I am not hallucinating:
========================================
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:2244379&refid=ink_puballtnews&skeyword=&teaser=
James Bolden
Los Angeles Sentinel
05-05-1994
Final Defendant Tried in LA's Worst Civil Unrest.
By JAMES BOLDEN
Staff Writer
Lance Jerome Parker, the last of the so called LA 4+ defendants, was acquitted Monday on charges that he fired a shotgun at trucker Reginald Denny during the April 29, 1992 violence at the intersection of Florence and Normandie.
>snip
=========================================
http://www.mndaily.com/daily/gopher-archives/1993/05/28/NAT28.STO.txt
A judge in Los Angeles, Calif., dismissed two felony charges Thursday
against a man accused of firing a shotgun at beating victim Reginald
Denny's truck at the start of the 1992 riots.
Superior Court Judge Michael Tynan ruled that prosecutors failed to
present adequate evidence against Lance Jerome Parker on two counts
of attempt to burn.
He still faces two counts of discharge of a firearm with gross
negligence, shooting at an unoccupied vehicle, assault with a firearm
and shooting at an occupied vehicle. He faces a 15-year jail term if
convicted.
========================================
I don't think anyone here is saying that PGO shotguns are stupid or utterly useless. But for most folk in most situations they lack the utility of a full stocked shotgun, unless the shooter works a lot harder and a lot longer at becoming proficient.
lpl/nc
justang-
i think this qualifies as fact...
again...
only time i've ever seen an actual "operator" using a PGO shotgun was a US marine. he had one slung over his pack while clearing a building in the sandbox with an M4.
did't have a chance to talk to him, but i'm pretty sure it was only there for breaching
i think this qualifies as fact...
again...
only time i've ever seen an actual "operator" using a PGO shotgun was a US marine. he had one slung over his pack while clearing a building in the sandbox with an M4.
did't have a chance to talk to him, but i'm pretty sure it was only there for breaching
Justang, and just a point from the tactics side of things, in actual household use your PGO isn't a whole lot shorter in practicality than a standard shotgun with the same length barrel.
When you are moving, you put the stock on your shoulder, and have the muzzle at the low ready. You pie around the corner, you don't stick your muzzle past where you can see. With a PGO, you are grasping the shotgun at approximately the same place either way, support hand on the forearm, main hand on the grip just behind the receiver. The length of the stock on the standard gun is inside the length of your forearm. With the PGO, unless you have boneless forearms, that distance is still going to be about the same.
In theory, you could shoot from the hip, and have your hand back next to your body, but A. that is useless for hitting anything. B. you can do that with a standard shotgun, and the butt just sticks past your hip.
This is not meant as elitism, or as a snub, but the vast majority of the folks who are PGO fans don't actually shoot that much. The ones that I see usually are purchased because they are fun toys, or because they look cool. Don't let cool looks or fun blind you to practicallity.
You can certainly defend yourself with one. You can also successfully defend yourself with a pointy stick.
When you are moving, you put the stock on your shoulder, and have the muzzle at the low ready. You pie around the corner, you don't stick your muzzle past where you can see. With a PGO, you are grasping the shotgun at approximately the same place either way, support hand on the forearm, main hand on the grip just behind the receiver. The length of the stock on the standard gun is inside the length of your forearm. With the PGO, unless you have boneless forearms, that distance is still going to be about the same.
In theory, you could shoot from the hip, and have your hand back next to your body, but A. that is useless for hitting anything. B. you can do that with a standard shotgun, and the butt just sticks past your hip.
This is not meant as elitism, or as a snub, but the vast majority of the folks who are PGO fans don't actually shoot that much. The ones that I see usually are purchased because they are fun toys, or because they look cool. Don't let cool looks or fun blind you to practicallity.
You can certainly defend yourself with one. You can also successfully defend yourself with a pointy stick.
If your willing to devote the time required to learn to shoot a PG, than you might become good with that set up, if you match someone who shoots allot with the stock butt, as opposed to someone who has not had that much experecne with the PG, your test will be flawed, and surely with clays it would not be a test, of alike tools...for similar useses, the stock butt, does not look as "cool" as the PG, in the mirror, so if that is what your after...go cool. This forum has great amounts of quality data, and no one is selling anything, look threw the material, and if you not interested, or if it does not fit....then your free, to pass, and keep looking, till you find that data, that supports your assumptions, but keep in mind, this type of search will be flawed from the start. If you must have the PG, go with it, your call, but you best get busy with learning how to use it, the outcome will be your responsibility alone....what YOU put into it....looks do not match up well to real life exchanges.
- Status
