Sig P238

[rellascout]

While you have every right to your personal perception, it makes it no more valid than any other and I would usually give more weight to the opinion of a Gunsmith of Bruce Gray's reputation and experience with Sig pistols. His experience with the design spans it existence through four manufacturers...it is not like it is a design without a track record

The purpose of this forum is to provide a place where a reader can fine differing opinions than their LGS or range. That means folks may disagree or have different experiences with a gun...that is why it is important to provide a basis for the opinion you may hold as opposed to something like "It's a great gun" or "It is junk"

The folks I see here trying to discourage others prior to purchase are trying to encourage the buyer to do more research or be more wary. It is really sad when folks make a purchase of a poorly designed gun and than return when their expectations of it are not met...only to hear, "We told you so"

I don't expect someone not to purchase this gun based on my opinion, just as I did not expect it when I warned people about the Sig Mosquito, the early Sig GSR or the early S&W Sigma 380.

All I try to do is give them the benefit of the research I have already done...they are always free to ignore it

Exactly. People here are pointing out that there have been issues which have been documented by actual owners and backup by people who know, like Bruce Gray.

I do not see people saying don't buy it. They are saying understand the risks. They then go on to state a personal opinion or judgment like I did. I personally am not willing to take the risk. Your backhanded rude comment that those who choose not to buy it can't afford it is a false assumption and I am not sure why you felt the need to make that kind of statement. If I wanted one I surely could afford one. I wanted to like it. I wanted it to run well but in the end it hiccuped in a big way right out of the gate and the fact there are still current reports of issues have lead me to pass. This maybe old new stock it might not but the chatter is still high enough with issues with new pistols that my money is going other places.

They are shipping out re coil springs like candy because they know there are issues with them. They have redesigned the recoil spring at least twice now. This is a sign to me that the buying public is doing the R&D on this pistol. Each buyer must way the risks vs the rewards and spend accordingly. Attacking the character of other long standing respected members is wrong IMHO.

 

[rellascout]

To get the numbers your using you are including minor problems that in most cases happened when the pistol was brand newnand cleared up after a magazine or two.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

I am reporting guns which had a failure which the owner reported. So what are the numbers removing them? You are still not going to get the number under 15%. Is a 15% defective rate ok? You are deflecting the question. What is an acceptable rate of first hand reported failure for this or any other defense pistol?

I think you are taking this too personally. You like the gun. Your works. Do not take other peoples comments about your P238 personally. It does not define you as a person. It is nothing but a tool.

 

[AK103K]

To me it is a roll of the dice.

Thats about it. The only way to know one way or the other, is spend the money and take your chances. If you luck out, Im sure you'll be happy, if you dont, well...., either way, Im sure we'll hear about it.

Clearly there is a bias here from some people against the P238.

Hmmmm, would it be safe to say its probably not the people who have one that works?

If someone can't afford or just dosen't want to spend the amount of money the P238 costs, fine but to try to discourage others from purchasing this fine pistol is just sad.

Regardless what it costs, if someone "asks" if youve had troubles, and you have, and you tell them, how is that "sad"? Question asked, and answered.

Then someone who has thier knickers in a twist, because you disparaged their choice of gun, has to weigh in and tell you that its sad. Cheer up, you got a good one, Im the one who was sad, for the short while I had it. Im over it now.

Yes the early P238 pistols had some problems...

Not just the early ones, and I've heard people complaining about guns just recently bought. Mine was made in May 2010, which was supposed to be past the date for problems, and mine was nothing but trouble.

Some people sent them back and are now satisfied but I personally would not use a gun I had to be sent back to the factory for service as a carry gun.

A number of people had to send them back more than once.

 

[kokapelli]

Ok I'm not wanting to get into an argument here, but that's my experience and my opinion about the pistol is based on my personal experience with a later production pistol that has been flawless.

I would like to know exactly what the so called design flaw in this pistol is since mine seems to have missed it.

 

[kokapelli]

By the way, the shooting facility I shoot at has sold every P238 they get in on the same day they get them and they have not any, I repeat any complaints on one yet.

 

[rellascout]

Ok I'm not wanting to get into an argument here, but that's my experience and my opinion about the pistol is based on my personal experience with a later production pistol that has been flawless.

I would like to know exactly what the so called design flaw in this pistol is since mine seems to have missed it....

By the way, the shooting facility I shoot at has sold every P238 they get in on the same day they get them and they have not any, I repeat any complaints on one yet.

How many are they moving? What is the total they have sold?

Honestly I need to know why you will not answer the simple question. What is an acceptable reported rate of failure for a gun like the P238?

You say you don't want to argument but you have started one. You have insulted other members and you have attacked their motives yet when confronted with that you now once again change the subject and duck the simple questions ask to you by asking others.

IMHO the Colt/P238 design has taken a reliable design from a larger 380 auto and shrunk it down to the point where reliability is compromised. It is a matter of timing which is revealed by the problems created by the recoil springs. The tolerances required for proper function are too tight. If the spring is off you will get timing issues which will create FTF and FTE.

My issues with designs like this with tolerances that are too tight is that the gun can be perfect one day and fail the next. Sig will tell you replace the spring and you will be good to go but what if the day it fails is the day you actually need it. That is why I would not carry a gun like this and for me this gun is 100% a carry gun. It is not a range toy. If I want to shoot a range toy 380 I will shoot my Beretta 84FS.

 

[kokapelli]

How many are they moving? What is the total they have sold?

Honestly I need to know why you will not answer the simple question. What is an acceptable reported rate of failure for a gun like the P238?

You say you don't want to argument but you have started one. You have insulted other members and you have attacked their motives yet when confronted with that you now once again change the subject and duck the simple questions ask to you by asking others.

IMHO the Colt/P238 design has taken a reliable design from a larger 380 auto and shrunk it down to the point where reliability is compromised. It is a matter of timing which is revealed by the problems created by the recoil springs. The tolerances required for proper function are too tight. If the spring is off you will get timing issues which will create FTF and FTE.

My issues with designs like this with tolerances that are too tight is that the gun can be perfect one day and fail the next. Sig will tell you replace the spring and you will be good to go but what if the day it fails is the day you actually need it. That is why I would not carry a gun like this and for me this gun is 100% a carry gun. It is not a range toy. If I want to shoot a range toy 380 I will shoot my Beretta 84FS.

I disagree.

 

[rellascout]

I disagree.

I never knew that would be your response was going to be so detailed and in depth.

Anyway you love your P238. You think they are good to go. You do not really want to discuss the issues and you have no opinion on what a proper defect rate for a defense pistol is. Yet you felt the need to lash out at people who disagrees with you.

I think this one has run its course. Your money so spend it as you wish. I urge everyone to do the research and make their decision based on their own criteria not just with the P238 but with any gun they are looking to purchase. Do not let emotions or emotions of other cloud your judgment.

 

[cheygriz]

I bought one, and an extra magazine. Second trip out shooting, one of the magazines came apart. The tack weld let go.

Neither magazine would feed reliability with factory FMJ ammo. I sent the intact magazine and the pieces of the one that came apart back to SIG.

When they send me new, or repaired magazines, I'll try shooting it again.

But even though I'm the world's greatest fan of SIG-SAUER guns, this one is going to need to shoot at least a thousand rounds without a single hiccup before I trust my life to it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I would like to know exactly what the so called design flaw in this pistol is since mine seems to have missed it.

This one we can answer based on experience...well, a gunsmith's experience who has worked on the platform before and has examined customer's 238 which would not function

The Sig 238 is a marginal design at best

The bottom line is this: experience tells us this design lacks adequate spring tunnel length, slide mass and magazine overrun travel to function reliably when compared to other more successful designs. Playing with recoil spring rates won't solve these issues definitively. While some pistols will work for some shooters, enough others will not. This was always the case with the similar Colt .380's, FIE's and so forth.

I'll add that the first solution of offering extended springs cause earlier spring failure as the there was not room to keep the spring from going solid and battering the frame. The latest solution is the offering of flat springs, but this has not addressed the matter of slide velocity and lack of dwell time at the end of the slides travel

 

[kokapelli]

This one we can answer based on experience...well, a gunsmith's experience who has worked on the platform before and has examined customer's 238 which would not function

The Sig 238 is a marginal design at best

The bottom line is this: experience tells us this design lacks adequate spring tunnel length, slide mass and magazine overrun travel to function reliably when compared to other more successful designs. Playing with recoil spring rates won't solve these issues definitively. While some pistols will work for some shooters, enough others will not. This was always the case with the similar Colt .380's, FIE's and so forth.

I'll add that the first solution of offering extended springs cause earlier spring failure as the there was not room to keep the spring from going solid and battering the frame. The latest solution is the offering of flat springs, but this has not addressed the matter of slide velocity and lack of dwell time at the end of the slides travel

I have read that before and I agree that it probably is one of the problems to overcome in these very short pistols and would it not also then apply to all the other micro pocket pistols like the LCP/P3AT which I believe have even space and slide mass?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Their design doesn't have the same lack of adequate spring tunnel length...they took that into consideration when they designed their guns.

The Seecamp is even smaller and doesn't have this problem, nor does the Kahr P380

A better question might be...When their are other choices, which are more reliable, to choose from, why would you champion a lessor platform in the first place and why would you then defend it as a carry gun when it is obvious that there are at least some problems?

 

[rellascout]

The bottom line is this: experience tells us this design lacks adequate spring tunnel length, slide mass and magazine overrun travel to function reliably when compared to other more successful designs. Playing with recoil spring rates won't solve these issues definitively. While some pistols will work for some shooters, enough others will not. This was always the case with the similar Colt .380's, FIE's and so forth.

I'll add that the first solution of offering extended springs cause earlier spring failure as the there was not room to keep the spring from going solid and battering the frame. The latest solution is the offering of flat springs, but this has not addressed the matter of slide velocity and lack of dwell time at the end of the slides travel.

There you go getting all technical. You could have just given him the idiots version... Oh nevermnd I already did. LOL

 

[9mmepiphany]

Oh nevermnd I already did. LOL

You know that when we agree on stuff, there must be some real basis for the assertion

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Really guys, this is the way I'll be looking at it. I've read about their problems early on. I've also read that the later models no longer have the same problems. Therefore, I've decided to give it a go. If it works out for me I'll be keeping it as long as it continues to do so.

However, if it begins to fail and do exactly what others have experienced, then it will simply go bye-bye and I'll begin to look for a replacement. Simple as that.

 

[kokapelli]

There you go getting all technical. You could have just given him the idiots version... Oh nevermnd I already did. LOL

If I'm reading this right your calling me an idiot, is that right?
By the way 9mmepjohann the Seecamp is not even a locked breach design, it's a blowback action that has completely different design requirements.

I don't buy your design flaw theory, but what do I know, other than the Seecamp is a whole different ball game because it's not a locked breach action. Oh did I already say that!

 

[rellascout]

If I'm reading this right your calling me an idiot, is that right?
By the way 9mmepjohann the Seecamp is not even a locked breach design, it's a blowback action that has completely different design requirements.

I don't buy your design flaw theory, but what do I know, other than the Seecamp is a whole different ball game because it's not a locked breach action. Oh did I already say that!

NO I am referring to my post as the idiots version of his post. In other words I attempt to express the same sentiments without the precision. Chill out. You are taking this all every personally.

 

[rellascout]

Really guys, this is the way I'll be looking at it. I've read about their problems early on. I've also read that the later models no longer have the same problems. Therefore, I've decided to give it a go. If it works out for me I'll be keeping it as long as it continues to do so.

However, if it begins to fail and do exactly what others have experienced, then it will simply go bye-bye and I'll begin to look for a replacement. Simple as that.

Solid philosophy as long as you don't dump it on someone.

 

[Cokeman]

Enough all ready!

We got it. It's a crappy pistol that's awesome. We know.

 

[9mmepiphany]

what do I know, other than the Seecamp is a whole different ball game because it's not a locked breach action. Oh did I already say that!

You didn't specify locked breach:

would it not also then apply to all the other micro pocket pistols

...but with that limitation, isn't the Kahr a locked breach?

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Rella, no worries. First, I don't sell firearms FTF to anyone. It's a rule I've made for myself. Reason being is because if it gets stolen from the buyer and used in a crime, it will come back to me. That's a cup of soup I would rather not deal with. Therefore, if I have trouble with it, it goes to my gunsmith. If he can't fix it then it goes back to where I bought it. The place I buy from is really good about working with people who have purchased bad firearms from them. Great customer service.

 

[rellascout]

Rella, no worries. First, I don't sell firearms FTF to anyone. It's a rule I've made for myself. Reason being is because if it gets stolen from the buyer and used in a crime, it will come back to me. That's a cup of soup I would rather not deal with. Therefore, if I have trouble with it, it goes to my gunsmith. If he can't fix it then it goes back to where I bought it. The place I buy from is really good about working with people who have purchased bad firearms from them. Great customer service.

+10000 So THR!!!!!!

 

[27Contender]

Any of you care to post pics of your P238s?

Good morning folks. Here is mine.




Here is what it is doing to the brass. I'd estimate it's 25% that have some deformation, not all as bad as these. :banghead:



Only one of these actually jammed, the rest ejected fine (or so I thought). I await it's return from the 2nd trip back to Sig. Hopefully they can get it right because I really like the gun. BTW, it was manufactured 12/15/10.

Does anyone else inspect their brass after shooting?

 

[AK103K]

Mine did that a good bit and 5-10% of the brass was not reloadable.

I believe this to be the reason for the damage. Unfortunately, this was a common stoppage with my gun.



As was this one...

 

[omu]

I love mine

I've got hundreds of rounds through mine. I love it, and I've had no problems whatsoever with it from day one. I carry it daily, either in a purse or a pancake holster. It's also easy on the hand at the range, which is nice.