SIG Sauer 716 failed Czech army reliability and durability tests

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Snejdarek

Snejdarek

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The Czech Army procured initial batch of 238 SIG Sauer 716 in order to utilize them alongside the CZ 805s as a 600m rifle (and start replacing Dragunovs with them). However, they failed miserably in reliability and durability tests, showing high number of malfunctions and with much lower than declared lifespan of barrels.

You can read it with google translate here: http://zpravy.e15.cz/domaci/udalosti/obrana-zatim-nove-pusky-nekoupi-neobstaly-v-testech-1131047

FYI the price for each one, including day and night optics and other accessories, was around USD 20.000.

I wonder whether SIG will take them back to US or have them adjusted for semi-auto only and throw at the Czech civilian market (hopefully for peanuts given this reputation). What is your experience with these rifles?
 
Interesting circumstances

The Czech government takes in a firearm of American design (sure, some cribbed features but there always are) from the Swiss/German colossus to replace a firearm manufactured by the Russian arms giant. Meanwhile, this is intended to "augment" a firearm produced by the power house of innovation that the Czech small arms industry represents.

All the while, the augmented firearm already, in fact, is capable of augmenting its own damn self in its own modular and multi-caliber form.

I wonder if this isn't a nod to some EU constrictions/guidelines in procurement.

All in all, it's very easy to queer a trial involving a Stoner design. Doesn't mean it's bad but it is easy to make look bad.

I'd like to see a full bore 805 make the grade.
 
Did I read that right? $20,000/rifle? For THAT much money, the Swiss coulda sent the Czechs fully-equipped SiG-AMTs or their select-fire equivalent. I'm not entirely lucid as to what the thought process was, here, but my bewilderment reminds me of what I felt when the Beretta M92 was adopted by NATO.
 
"All in all, it's very easy to queer a trial involving a Stoner design. Doesn't mean it's bad but it is easy to make look bad."
I've never heard it phrased quite like that, but it's a great shorthand of the AR's tribulations :D

I, too, hope the Czechs run with native equipment (and finally, at long last, make some sales to the Euro continent and elsewhere; the last big sale was likely BRENs [and the belt fed BESA versions] and Mausers before that --it's been a while). They've got a fantastic universal MG, a wonder assault rifle being replaced by one that seems to be just as good or better in every way, and their pistol business has been doing great lately, as well.

Has anyone heard about the 805's tortured journey through our imports idiocy? Last I'd heard (years back) was that it was planned to bring it over like the VZ58s through a US importer/manufacturer, but it was a low priority since the Czech Army obviously took precedence over Yankee Bubba :D

TCB
 
...but it was a low priority since the Czech Army obviously took precedence...
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They are now undergoing procurement process for French and Indian new main battle rifle with 805 (or its updated version 807, which has been whispered about but no-one has seen it). Winning those would probably completely sideline manufacturing for civilians. Also, Slovak army ordered 805s immediately after the Ruskies started showing up in Ukraine. Apparently the production is running at full since the Czech army had to give a green light to have its own shipments postponed with the production redirected towards Slovaks.

Did I read that right? $20,000/rifle?
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The contract winner was actually Meopta. Since Meopta fronted for SIG and not the other way around I guess that optics and other accessories were the most costly part. Meopta already announced it wants to re-enter with some other manufacturer.

I wonder if this isn't a nod to some EU constrictions/guidelines in procurement.
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Yup, nowadays all goes through open competition.
 
They would be better off taking the HK, Styer and IWI route and setting up CZ USA to assemble them and give them 922r compliance
 
CZ 807 is showing up, upgraded version of the 805. There IS a semi-auto only version of the BREN 805 called the S-1, but under BATFE rules, I don't know if it's far enough from the original receiver design to qualify.
The BREN 805 was also adopted by the Mexican Army, which sucks for me - the first time I see 805s they will be on the news, confiscated from cartel members running drugs and criminal aliens across our border. :mad:

Link to TheFirearmBlog for pictures of the 805S1 and 807.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/03/cz807-upgraded-cz805a2-semi-auto-cz805s1/

I'd love to see one soon.

I'd like to see a full bore 805 make the grade.
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Not sure what you mean, since the BREN 805 already won acceptance and adoption by the Czech military, while the SiG did not. So I think it already did make the grade, as it were. That's three certain, with another possible possible military contract - CZ-UB is going to be busy for a while.
 
armoredman said:
Not sure what you mean, since the BREN 805 already won acceptance and adoption by the Czech military, while the SiG did not. So I think it already did make the grade, as it were.
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I'm referring to the larger bore, of the multi-calber rifle.
 
Ah, then that is the 807, which hasn't entered service yet. Yes, it will be interesting to see how it does, and whether a US version will include 6.5mm Grendel as an option. :)
 
armoredman said:
Ah, then that is the 807, which hasn't entered service yet. Yes, it will be interesting to see how it does, and whether a US version will include 6.5mm Grendel as an option. :)
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Been watching for a 6.8 SPC version. Especially since Sellior and Bellot's loads are getting great reviews lately.
 
Link to TheFirearmBlog for pictures of the 805S1 and 807.
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These are all pics of 805. 805 was developed as multi-caliber- easily changeable by the soldier (i.e. no need to involve armorer). 807 should go further, not only caliber change.

BTW, 805 S1s go for about $2.300 in the Czech Republic (new). Semi-auto VZ.58 costs about $200... Upgraded VZ.58 including optics, FAB accessories, etc., costs about $ 1.000. I plan to buy one and am deciding between the two VZ.58s, the price of 805 is too steep for me.
 
Snejdarek said:
The Czech Army procured initial batch of 238 SIG Sauer 716 in order to utilize them alongside the CZ 805s as a 600m rifle (and start replacing Dragunovs with them). However, they failed miserably in reliability and durability tests, showing high number of malfunctions and with much lower than declared lifespan of barrels.

You can read it with google translate here: http://zpravy.e15.cz/domaci/udalosti/obrana-zatim-nove-pusky-nekoupi-neobstaly-v-testech-1131047

FYI the price for each one, including day and night optics and other accessories, was around USD 20.000.

I wonder whether SIG will take them back to US or have them adjusted for semi-auto only and throw at the Czech civilian market (hopefully for peanuts given this reputation). What is your experience with these rifles?
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I would not worry about new battle rifles and certainly would not throw away 20,000 per rig on new ones. Remember what happened in 1938? If Putin's armies move South-West it will not even take that long.
 
Versatility always, ALWAYS, equals royal pain in the you know what.

I wish Sig would abandon this modularity idea and stick to what they are good at.
 
Just to be clear, there's nothing Swiss or German about the 716, nor any of the other AR pattern rifles from SIG. Those rifles, to include the 556 series, are just products that SIG here in the USA created to increase profit margins and to try and gain more market share as a rifle maker. SIG has been fraught with troubles since they decided they wanted to be known as a "rifle company" and started giving us poor renditions of Swiss classics and regurgitated/stolen IP in their AR piston offerings.

Honestly, this monumental failure is not at all surprising to me. The company that currently wears the SIG badge is little more than a shell of the company that worked so hard to earn a great reputation. What DOES surprise me is that a foreign military would not be privy to this information and would even entertain the notion of buying a US commercial spec rifle to try and meet their needs.
 
"SIG has been fraught with troubles since they decided they wanted to be known as a "rifle company""
I know it's probably not the "same" SIG at this point, but they did partner with Beretta to develop the AR70 (itself a much-refined ripoff of the AK47 but with a very SIG layout and trigger group), and before that develop the STGW57, and before that produce the K31. So I don't know if I'd go and say they have no rifle 'pedigree,' it's just that pistols have been far more profitable for them since the collapse of the USSR convinced Europe they didn't need militaries anymore (only police).

Besides, so many people are parroting M4s at this point, it's like saying they are "stealing" toast by heating bread the same as all their neighbors :p. The same could honestly be said of all the 'children of the AR18' popping up the world over right now (with no credit for their modernization given to the G36, which itself gave no credit to the original AR18). In short, that's the gun industry, love it or leave it :cool:

TCB
 
If I read initial post correctly, they are replacing Dragunov? That would free up a lot of Dragunovs, wouldn't it? I wonder whether the Czechs will keep them in inventory or unload them here on the US market? At a reasonable price?
 
That would free up a lot of Dragunovs
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The recent Czech fashion is giving any surpluses free-of-charge to anyone who seems to be currently in need - from helicopters to Afghani army to millions of rounds of ammunition to Kurdish fighters. Also, the Iraqi army may or may not get (the information changes weekly) surplus L-159 ALCAs, which is a real shame since it would be nice to see them in hands of private collectors alongside the L-39s.

Of course, one can never rule out that they would be sold to civilians. The Czech army usually sells equipment in open biddings in large numbers. They usually first end up at hands of companies like http://www.excaliburarmy.com/ which made headlines when they bought dozens of used Hungarian tanks during the height of Ukrainian crisis (their train transports to storage facility in the Czech Republic was purported by Russian propaganda as heading towards Ukraine). Then it depends whether they get a third-world buyer for the whole chunk or whether it pays more to unload it at civilian market. (FYI although they don't advertise tanks in their webshop, if you have all the permits they will sell one to private collectors too, alongside the ferrets or saracens - I wonder whether a Brit could buy one for fun as easily as Czechs can).
 
I know it's probably not the "same" SIG at this point, but they*did*partner with Beretta to develop the AR70 (itself a much-refined ripoff of the AK47 but with a very SIG layout and trigger group), and before that develop the STGW57, and before that produce the K31. So I don't know if I'd go and say they have*no*rifle 'pedigree,' it's just that pistols have been far more profitable for them since the collapse of the USSR convinced Europe they didn't need militaries anymore (only police).

Besides, so many people are parroting M4s at this point, it's like saying they are "stealing" toast by heating bread the same as all their neighbors*. The same could honestly be said of all the 'children of the AR18' popping up the world over right now (with no credit for their modernization given to the G36, which itself gave no credit to the original AR18). In short, that's the gun industry, love it or leave it*
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Some guys making AR pattern rifles in New Hampshire has nothing to do with the weapons development history of their Swiss-German parent company.

Those very same New Hampshire folks copied the Adams Arms piston design to a "T" and then did the same exact thing with LWRC's bolt carrier design. One might say that's a little different than simply making an AR15 whose patents are long expired.

Personally, when I see crap like that, I don't shrug it off and say "oh well, that's the gun industry." It's a revelation of the company's ethics and lack of originality and creativity.
 
No offense, but such a slam dunk infringement case would have been won by now. I suspect the piston & carrier design weren't sufficiently 'novel' to warrant protection. Some stuff is protectable, a lot isn't in reality, which is why cases aren't brought (the VZ carrier tab should not have been protected, for instance, since that is an obvious mod. CAI simply didn't care enough about delivering rifles with the best solution to waste money fighting them. The reverse is often true, as well)

Trent, how do you not have a VZ58? Get on PSA and spend 400$ on one today. It's the best x39 rifle there is, the best attributes of the SKS and AK combined in a more compact package than either. Mechanically, the little brother of your UK59

TCB
 
Sig's first AR was and is a solid performer...as good as any out there...I'm talking about the 1st generation of the 516...I know it used some parts copied from others, but it is a very good AR.

Mine gets treated pretty rough...but still properly maintained...its never given me any trouble, very accurate for an AR too.

I didn't send it in for the recall, didn't even know about the recall until a year or so after they did it, lol...it still has the original "LWRC" carrier and original gas block, which has never been difficult to unscrew...even after 500 rounds the cheapest ammo I could find.
 
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