Sight Picture and sights in general

[brontodon]

While I wait for my NJ firearm license, I am researching what guns I'd like to own. I've been shooting various types at the local range and I am gravitating towards a 1911. I shoot "OK" for a beginner but I want to improve my accuracy. I am studying handgun grip, trigger technique, and shooting stance, and those are topics for a different post, but today I'd like to learn about sights.

The various 1911s I'm shopping have a number of different sights, and I'm developing certain preferences, but I'm not sure I'm using them correctly. I'm finding I like brighter, more visible sights, such as white dots front and rear, but I'm wondering whether a fiber optic front sight might be better. (I've looked at some tritium night sights, but wasn't impressed.) Any opinions or advice?

While I'm on the topic of sights, I'm trying to figure out how to use them. I'm likely to purchase one of the Springfield Armory 1911s, so allow me to quote from their user manual:

POINT OF AIM
Point of Impact

Shooters may use a “point of aim” sight picture at 25 yards. This means that, at 25 yards the bullet should impact the target at the point visible at the top of the front sight. Shooters may also use a “6 o’clock” sight picture to strike the center of the target. Springfield Armory® pistols are designed to use the “6 o’clock” sight picture at 25 yards. However, some pistols may shoot “point of aim” at 25 yards depending on shooter and ammunition.


This is their "point of aim" sight picture.


This is their "6 o'clock" sight picture.

My questions are:

• Are these instructions ambiguous? How can both techniques yield proper aim?
• So there is no recommendation to place the front sight directly over the intended target? (By "over," I mean blocking it or superimposing the center dot on the bull's eye.) That's how I've been doing it, and apparently I've been doing it wrong.
• It seems that in the second picture, the bull's eye is not centered in the target. Am I interpreting this wrong?

The only good thing about the long New Jersey waiting period is that it gives me time to do my research!

 

[Riomouse911]

1. Any fixed-sight gun you buy is “usually” equipped with sights set to shoot one sight picture or the other using industry standard ammo at a 15 or 25 yard range. (On average, of course.)

So, my SIG Sauer pistols, My Beretta 92/96, and my stock Glock pistols shoot 115 gr FMJ using the top sight picture. (Half-covering the bullseye). 124 fmj is pretty much the same.

I believe all of my other makes/models shoot using the bottom sight picture, with the bullseye sitting on top of the front post.

Both are effective; the top I prefer for fast/combat shooting at larger targets. (Center mass sight picture)

The bottom one lets me shoot to a finer point of aim/impact, especially on paper or plates. I guess because I can see more area at the target a bit easier.

You will need to shoot your own gun with the ammo you prefer to determine your sight picture, to get the POI at the range(s) you are shooting at. (Thats the fun stuff.)

2. It all depends on how the sights are set at the factory, the ammo, the distance, the shooter, etc. to find which sight picture works best. (See fun stuff above.)

3. The line through the target thats throwing you off looks to me to be a reference point and not a part of the target.

In both images it shows where the top of the rear and front sights are perfectly aligned in the sight picture, which is a must for consistent, accurate shooting.

The actual “targets” on the page are the small circles and bullseye dot; the top one is half obscured by the front sight post, which is where the line bisects the bull.

The other has the bull on top of the post, so the line is at the bottom of the bull at the top of the sights.

You’re doing well! Don’t overthink things too much, you will answer a lot of your questions the first trip or two to shoot.

Stay safe.

 

[nettlle]

I think the sights are a matter of personal preference. I have pistols with a fiber optic front and blacked out rear that I like, Tridium front and blacked out rear, and a brass bead (if it's shined up) and a blacked out rear and like all of them. What I don't like is dots on the rear sight. I catch myself trying to line all these dots up and it takes my concentration off of the front sight and the target. .

 

[DMW1116]

These instructions are personal preference in some cases and depend on distance. My Canik has fixed sights set for a point of aim hold at 10 yards and a 6 o’clock hold for 25 yards.

My 22 target pistol and Blackhawk revolver have adjustable sights. I shoot bullseye targets with them at 25 and 50 yards and zero them to hit center of a 5.5” target at 25 yards using a 6 o’clock hold. Groups at 50 yards are so large saying they’re “zeroed” is a little generous with my shooting. However, they are coincidentally zeroed for point of aim at 10 yards and when I change loads for the Blackhawk, that’s where I start.

Handguns work like rifles in that the bullet starts below the line of sight, rise to meet it at a certain distance, and the rise above it before falling back below it.

I’ve shot a Springfield 1911 and it hit just above the sights at 10 yards. I used a 6 o’clock hold on the red center and the group was about 1” higher that the bottom edge of the center. I think it would have hit about center at 25 yards but didn’t try it.

 

[bangswitch]

While I wait for my NJ firearm license, I am researching what guns I'd like to own. I've been shooting various types at the local range and I am gravitating towards a 1911. I shoot "OK" for a beginner but I want to improve my accuracy. I am studying handgun grip, trigger technique, and shooting stance, and those are topics for a different post, but today I'd like to learn about sights.

The various 1911s I'm shopping have a number of different sights, and I'm developing certain preferences, but I'm not sure I'm using them correctly. I'm finding I like brighter, more visible sights, such as white dots front and rear, but I'm wondering whether a fiber optic front sight might be better. (I've looked at some tritium night sights, but wasn't impressed.) Any opinions or advice?

While I'm on the topic of sights, I'm trying to figure out how to use them. I'm likely to purchase one of the Springfield Armory 1911s, so allow me to quote from their user manual:

POINT OF AIM
Point of Impact

Shooters may use a “point of aim” sight picture at 25 yards. This means that, at 25 yards the bullet should impact the target at the point visible at the top of the front sight. Shooters may also use a “6 o’clock” sight picture to strike the center of the target. Springfield Armory® pistols are designed to use the “6 o’clock” sight picture at 25 yards. However, some pistols may shoot “point of aim” at 25 yards depending on shooter and ammunition.

View attachment 1185398
This is their "point of aim" sight picture.

View attachment 1185399
This is their "6 o'clock" sight picture.

My questions are:

• Are these instructions ambiguous? How can both techniques yield proper aim?
• So there is no recommendation to place the front sight directly over the intended target? (By "over," I mean blocking it or superimposing the center dot on the bull's eye.) That's how I've been doing it, and apparently I've been doing it wrong.
• It seems that in the second picture, the bull's eye is not centered in the target. Am I interpreting this wrong?

The only good thing about the long New Jersey waiting period is that it gives me time to do my research!

The top sight picture is what I've always called a "sunrise" hold (my preference), the bottom one I call a "six o'clock" hold. You can adjust an adjustable sight to either picture, but fixed sights, you practice until you're familiar with the sight picture that puts your round where you want it. Any two guns with a fixed sight will give a slightly different picture for a bullseye hit, and as the distance to target grows, those sight pictures will change. For a new shooter, I recommend being happy with a consistent group until you get very familiar and comfortable with your grip and stance. Then start working on the bullseye, if that is your goal.

If what you want is to be enough on the target for self defense shooting, the main thing to practice is quickly getting your eye to the sights and being happy with a shot in center mass. Better yet, practice "point shooting" or instinctive aim, don't worry about getting the post and notch perfectly aligned, but practice getting a quick shot which is accurate enough to stop an assailant.

 

[Japle]

Either sight picture is right, depending on what kind of shooting you're doing.
For bullseye, the bottom one is fine. For combat, I think most of us would want the point of impact to be right on the top of the front sight, so #1 would be best.
I often say that you can teach a monkey to line up the sights, but the most important factor in pistol shooting is trigger control.
Prep the trigger, smooth squeeze for a "surprise break", follow-through and calling the shot.
Don't blink. If you blink, you very probably flinched. In order to master follow-through and shot calling, you have to keep your eyes open and see what's happening.
This is why it's so hard to learn to shoot a handgun if you start with a gun that produces significant recoil and muzzle blast. I like to start my students with a good pellet pistol - low noise and zero recoil.
Once they can shoot consistent 2" groups at 15', we can move on to .22s and light .38 - type stuff.
People who start on a 9mm or .45 or a .357 revolver are under a severe handicap. I shoot in a pistol league and see this every week; guys and gals who can barely stay on the paper. Their first gun was a 9mm or .357 and they've had no competent instruction. Bad grip and stance and zero concept of trigger control. Don't be that guy.

 

[bearcreek]

Handguns work like rifles in that the bullet starts below the line of sight, rise to meet it at a certain distance, and the rise above it before falling back below it.

Lest our new shooter misunderstand, we should clarify that the bullet does not "rise", per se. If the barrel is held perfectly level, the bullet starts to drop as soon as it leaves the muzzle. The bullet only "rises" above the level of the muzzle because the barrel is pointed at an upward angle so that the bullet can meet the line of sight at the zero distance.

 

[DMW1116]

Right, that’s true. I didn’t want to overwhelm, but bullets don’t rise of their own power.

OP, you can also vary the point of impact by changing loads if you’re sights aren’t adjustable. I tried 230 grain round nose ammo in that Springfield 1911. The point of impact would have been different if I had been shooting 185 grain hollow points. Depending on use, it might have been better or worse.

 

[Russ57]

Sounds like it will be more for target shooting than self defense.

Try to stretch the budget to the "Loaded Target" model. See if you have a local club (which holds sanctioned matches ideally) near by. NRA 2700 bullseye will teach you how to shoot for accuracy.

If you want to get remotely serious it helps to hand load your own ammo.

 

[barnfrog]

And as long as we've delved into practicing and trigger control, someone ought to suggest dry fire practice. Lots and lots of it. Many competition shooters say they do a lot more trigger pulls in dry fire training than they do with live ammunition. Similar to what Japle was espousing with smaller caliber handguns.

 

[CapnMac]

Perhaps a picture can offer a thousand words (sort of)

For our purposes her, we can divide those range numbers by 10--knowing that the vertical scale is already exaggerated, in reality this is the sort of vertical deviation:

Note how, in the first 25 yards, there's no real drop at all--which is how the Instruction Manual can show both "bullseyes" as being legit.
Now, in a rigid rest, like the legendary Ransom Rest:

It might be possible to actually detect the difference in Point of Impact (often abbreviated as POI) between 15 and 25 yards. From my experience, the drop change is around a bullet diameter, generally no different than amount of change in a Standard Deviation.

As @bangswitch and @Riomouse911 both point out, experience tends to be the best teacher.
Getting to where, when you raise the firearm up the sights ought align like this:

Without regard to what you are point at (to start). Getting to where that front sight is level with the rear, and even left-and-right in the rear, is the first key.

Go to the range and apply that alignment to the target. Where the holes show up will tell you how that ammo, at that range (distance) impacts versus that point-of-aim. It might be that the POI is 4 inches up and 2 inches right with FMJ at 25 yards. Or it could be 1" left, and 2" down, too. (Confusingly, the same kind of ammo, like 230gr FMJ, from two different manufacturers might have that much difference between them--you have to shoot them to know.)

This is part of the story of exploration that is shooting. This brand of ammo will shoot [there] but with a group; this other brand shoots [over there] with a different (maybe better, maybe worse) group. And, the only way to know is to expend the ammo.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

It depends on your intended use for the gun... target competition, casual plinking at beer (empty!) cans, hunting, or protection against bipedal or quadrupedal predators. Lighting conditions are also important: inside under bright lights or at night, or outside under sunlight. (I don't have an answer for you, I just wanted to complicate your life a little. I am an old fart after all.)

 

[film495]

there will be variation, but the weight and standard round whatever it is were designed for - I want to be using the top graphic. If I have to eye it a bit based on distance or different ammo, that's fine, but - the top sight picture is the standard I use on most everything and it always seems to work. the bottom grapic is confusing and doesn't even make sense what they are trying to show IMHO.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

"6 o'clock" is for bullseye target shooting. When the sights are adjusted for 6 o'clock, it provides a more visually precise sight picture - just "balance" the bullseye "ball" on the front sight.

"Point of aim" is the most common sight picture for pistols and rifles. The bullet hits right at the center of the front sight tip.

"Combat sight picture" puts the front dot on the aimpoint when the sights are aligned - as you ask in your second question. Some manufacturers configure their sights like this - usually 3-dot sights.

Refer to the owner's manual to find out what sight picture your pistol's sight are regulated to.

 

[brontodon]

Don't blink. If you blink, you very probably flinched.

Do you hold your breath? One of the techniques in photography to minimize camera movement is to hold your breath at the moment of shutter release, and I'm finding that shooting is similar to photography in that we want to minimize movement of our device at a crucial moment.

 

[DMW1116]

Do you hold your breath? One of the techniques in photography to minimize camera movement is to hold your breath at the moment of shutter release, and I'm finding that shooting is similar to photography in that we want to minimize movement of our device at a crucial moment.

I don't hold my breath in a determined effort type of way, but I do take a little break from breathing, whether in or out, when I decide to take the shot. A determined effort on my part to hold my breath usually results in more movement that I have to correct. With a rifle on a rest, even my heartbeat causes enough movement that it has to be considered. With a pistol shooting offhand with one hand, nothing below a 4 on the Reichter scale or a 20-mph cross wind causes any more movement than I'm already generating.

 

[mavs]

"6 o'clock" is for bullseye target shooting. When the sights are adjusted for 6 o'clock, it provides a more visually precise sight picture - just "balance" the bullseye "ball" on the front sight.

"Point of aim" is the most common sight picture for pistols and rifles. The bullet hits right at the center of the front sight tip.

"Combat sight picture" puts the front dot on the aimpoint when the sights are aligned - as you ask in your second question. Some manufacturers configure their sights like this - usually 3-dot sights.

Refer to the owner's manual to find out what sight picture your pistol's sight are regulated to.

I have a Glock 19 and a Glock 44....the owner's manual doesn't say squat about what the sight picture is regulated to in either manual.

 

[Show Me]

While I wait for my NJ firearm license, I am researching what guns I'd like to own. I've been shooting various types at the local range and I am gravitating towards a 1911. I shoot "OK" for a beginner but I want to improve my accuracy. I am studying handgun grip, trigger technique, and shooting stance, and those are topics for a different post, but today I'd like to learn about sights.

The various 1911s I'm shopping have a number of different sights, and I'm developing certain preferences, but I'm not sure I'm using them correctly. I'm finding I like brighter, more visible sights, such as white dots front and rear, but I'm wondering whether a fiber optic front sight might be better. (I've looked at some tritium night sights, but wasn't impressed.) Any opinions or advice?

While I'm on the topic of sights, I'm trying to figure out how to use them. I'm likely to purchase one of the Springfield Armory 1911s, so allow me to quote from their user manual:

POINT OF AIM
Point of Impact

Shooters may use a “point of aim” sight picture at 25 yards. This means that, at 25 yards the bullet should impact the target at the point visible at the top of the front sight. Shooters may also use a “6 o’clock” sight picture to strike the center of the target. Springfield Armory® pistols are designed to use the “6 o’clock” sight picture at 25 yards. However, some pistols may shoot “point of aim” at 25 yards depending on shooter and ammunition.

View attachment 1185398
This is their "point of aim" sight picture.

View attachment 1185399
This is their "6 o'clock" sight picture.

My questions are:

• Are these instructions ambiguous? How can both techniques yield proper aim?
• So there is no recommendation to place the front sight directly over the intended target? (By "over," I mean blocking it or superimposing the center dot on the bull's eye.) That's how I've been doing it, and apparently I've been doing it wrong.
• It seems that in the second picture, the bull's eye is not centered in the target. Am I interpreting this wrong?

The only good thing about the long New Jersey waiting period is that it gives me time to do my research!

You'll learn when you start shooting

 

[brontodon]

Refer to the owner's manual to find out what sight picture your pistol's sight are regulated to.

I've looked at the owner's manuals for a number of manufacturers: Springfield, Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Savage, Wilson Combat, Bul Armory, Glock, and Beretta. Only Springfield and Wilson seem to discuss this issue (unless I missed something.)

 

[Bazoo]

I always liked sight picture 1, the point of impact correlating with point of aim. My previous Springfield Armory Mil Spec 45 acp hit to sight picture 1. I could hit a 2/3 IPSC target out to, and somewhat past 100 yards without aiming high, but of course the impact of the bullet became lower and lower as the distance increased.

I would always hold my breath when shooting for groups, or at targets that were small or at any distance. But if practicing defensive type shooting, I did not. When holding my breath, I always just stop breathing at the lower part of my out breath and break the shot. If I always take 1 breath before taking another shot, and often 2, if I'm trying for best target work.

The 1911 would easily print 1 ragged hole at 15 yards, and about 2" at 25. I never could hold 2" at 25 with any regularity, but I could easily hit a 6" plate, sometimes a smaller target such as a coke can.

If you're shooting inside, you'll need a different sight picture than if you primary shoot outside. All black target sights are better outside, at least for my eyes. I did black my sights out on my Mil Spec. I don't care for busy rear sights. Fiber optic front is nice though, and useful in all lighting conditions.

I've found that finding a suitable target is paramount to decent marksmanship. If you have too small of a target, you will not be able to see it, and thus, will have larger groups. At less than 15 yards, about a 2" ring or circle/square on a paper plate is sufficient. Past that, I cannot see it and I switch to a bright green square of about 3" on a plain cardboard backer. I found the latter works best for me of what I have tried thus far.

 

[Japle]

Do you hold your breath? One of the techniques in photography to minimize camera movement is to hold your breath at the moment of shutter release, and I'm finding that shooting is similar to photography in that we want to minimize movement of our device at a crucial moment.

I do. "Is the line ready" or "Shooter ready", I take a fairly deep breath and let it out until I'm comfortable. Then I don't breath again until the string is over. It may or may not matter that I play bass trombone and likely have better breath control than your average guy.

 

[doubleh]

Going back to the sight question I see it as matter of personal preference. What works of one may not work well for someone else. Back when I needed no help seeing I could use plain black or a colored insert on the front sight equally well. As I aged the colored front sight was better and the three white dots even better. Now that my cataracts are gone the colored sights and especially yellow or brass color disappear in bright sunlight which is our predominant condition here. Plani black. three white dots, and dayglo front or front and rear all work well for ME.

As to point of aim I was hunter when I started shooting handguns and just used what came naturally, a center hold as that was what I used with rifles and it has done the job for ME. If I were a bullseye shooter I would a 6 o'clock hold with a dedicated pistol.

Experiment to find what works best for YOU. This could get expensive so find other handgunners to make friends with and try their guns to help make up your mind.

 

[PWC]

Pick an ammo brand; shoot with both hands from a rest with both consistent sight alignments at 7 yds, 15 yds and 25 yds. The target will tell you which sight picture you need for THAT gun and THAT ammo.



If the sights are adjustable, adjust them. If you don't reload, then you must buy different commercial ammo and test THAT ammo as above, then choose the best ammo to gun match that suits you.

If the sights are not adjustable, the only way to adjust the point of impact to the point of aim is thru varying bullet and powder load thru reloading your own ammo and test as above. If you are new to this site, that is what we call "working up a load". There is a plethora of help available here on THR.

 

[CapnMac]

Do you hold your breath?

Best practice is to pause an exhale, then let it out slowly as you put the press on the trigger.

Depending upon the firearm, you either have the pad of the last joint of the trigger finger laid on, or, you have the crease. The latter will be more common for needing more "pull" as with some striker-fired pistols.

If the trigger has a safety dingus, I find getting the pad hooked over, with the crease on the center of the trigger bow--enough to close the dingus up--works to keep your finger out of the bottom of the trigger guard getting pinched on each shot.
Revolvers and similar double-action arms will need that crease on the trigger, just so you can generate the pull wanted. Keeping that from a flinch to the right wants a lot of practice--and dry firing is often the best way.

 

[halfmoonclip]

We're drowning the OP in info; he'll have to learn by doing/experimenting, as most of us did.
Brontodon, just make sure you're following the rules of gun safety, have fun, and keep us posted.
Moon