Silly IDPA question

[Atom Smasher]

I have one 10-round mag and two 15-round mags for my Sig. The rules, as I have read them, state that for the SSP division my handgun must

"Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the same capacity magazines through out the competition
(Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

Can I load my 15-round mag with 11 rounds, chamber one, and still be within regulation? Also, do I need to have standardized max capacity, or is it okay if I carry two different magazine types as long as they are loaded to the same capacity? Do I need to pickup some more 10-round mags?

I'm super-new to the competitive shooting scene, and my first IDPA event is coming up soon, and I want to make sure I'm within regulations before I show up.

 

[Coyote3855]

Best place to ask is the folks at the IDPA event. My experience is that most competitive shooters are very willing to assist newbies. I'm an IPSC shooter, never done IDPA. But the way I read the rules, you are fine if you load 10 in two mags, 11 in the first one so you start with 10 in the mag and one in the tube.

 

[Sam1911]

No worries at all!

Your division capacity is 10, +1. Technically no mag may ever have more than 10 in it -- regardless of how many they could hold.

The note about using lower-capacity magazines is really for the CDP (and some ESP) guys who may have factory magazines that are lower capacity than the standard division capacity. (Original 1911 magazines only held 7, for example. Some 9mm 1911 mags only hold 9, etc.) If they're using some of those lower-capacity magazines, fine, but they have to stay consistent with that, not pick and chose magazines for game advantages.

Most SSP and ESP folks do indeed load 11 in their first mag to make that "+1" a bit quicker (rather than having to use a "Barney" mag with just one in it to top off like the CDP guys have to do).

Be careful, though! At big matches you'll sometimes see a stage that requires you to start with the gun empty. About 1/4th of the shooters will step up to the line and prepare their usual first mag (with 11 in it) and load that when the beep comes. When you fire that 11th shot before the reload -- DING! -- instant "FTDR" penalty because you were technically never supposed to have 11 in the mag. That's a "rule-book trap" I hate to see, but it is done. I've seen shooters walk off the line disgusted with a 20 second match-killing penalty for a dumb rule book memory test "gotcha."

 

[beatledog7]

The way I read it, all the mags you use, regardless of which division you shoot in, must be of the same capacity. Loading 10 rounds in a 10-rd mag and 10 rounds each in two 15-rd mags would not be allowed.

 

[Sam1911]

Loading 10 rounds in a 10-rd mag and 10 rounds each in two 15-rd mags would not be allowed.

I understand that it looks that way, but it is never, EVER applied that way. I've worked a fair number of sanctioned matches as an SO (including Nationals), shot a lot more, and am a Match Director myself, and I've never seen or heard of anyone enforcing that rule in that way.

There would be no point as there can be no possible unfair game advantage that isn't already handled through some other penalty. If you load 11 or 12 or whatever in one, you're going to get a PE or an FTDR regardless, so there is no way to capitalize on having some mags that are 10 and some that are 13,15,17,19...whatever. As there's no way to make use of that extra capacity, whatever it might be, applying the rule this way just penalizes folks for having extra air and spring length in their magazines. That'd be silly.

The rule is only relevant to folks in CDP and ESP (or SSP, I suppose) who might have a magazine that only held 7,8,9 or whatever less than 10. The game advantage there would be to plan to use one of those sub-capacity mags to run the gun to slide-lock at an advantageous point for a quick reload. To prevent that game advantage, IDPA says if you're going to use ONE mag that's short, they've all got to be short. You might get an advantage on one stage one day, but you'll lose that advantage on the next stage.

 

[mgmorden]

Be careful, though! At big matches you'll sometimes see a stage that requires you to start with the gun empty. About 1/4th of the shooters will step up to the line and prepare their usual first mag (with 11 in it) and load that when the beep comes.

Yep. Being even more picky, a lot of Production shooters will keep their 11-rounder in their pocket and 4 more in the belt. During stages with mandatory reloads or on an empty start like you mention, they'll just use the mags off their belt. Technically they never use a mag with more than 10 in it, but they do still have an over-capacity mag on their person.

As another kinda similar gotcha (though is is USPSA only), a lot of guys in Production or Single-Stack also keep their starting/barney mag in their front pocket and retrieve it on "Load and Make Ready". Its recently been noted however that the course of fire, strictly speaking, beings at "Load and Make Ready", and having that magazine in your front pocket qualifies as a mag forward of the hip, and can warrant a bump to Open division. Same applies to when unloading at the end. If you drop the mag into your hand and then place it in your pocket, then since the course of fire hasn't finished you now are carrying a mag forward of the hip and can be bumped.

At the Area 7 Championships last weekend, at least one shooter was bumped to open for the front-pocket mag at LAMR, and at least one more for dropping the empty mag in the front pocket at IFUSC.

 

[Jim Watson]

OK, we are talking about IDPA.
You will be just fine to load your full capacity magazine with 11 so as to get to a 10+1 start with a minimum of manipulation.
Use your 10 shot Klinton Klips for reloads.

As said you must be careful that you do not have that magazine with 11 in it on hand for an empty gun start.

I put a paster on the bottom of one or a few magazines. Those get 11, the unmarked ones get 10. So there is no doubt in my mind as to what I am loading the gun with.

You only need three magazines to get through any given stage but more will be a help.
Buy full capacity magazines and load them with 10 (or 11 for the initial loading). They are easier to load and easier to seat in the gun under a closed slide for a Tac Load. They also have a higher resale value if you trade guns.


The USPSA hangup described by mgmorden does not apply to IDPA.
beatledog is wrong.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Thanks, guys! I figure I'll load one of the 15's with 11, and keep the 10-round and other 15-round loaded with 10 for an empty weapon start.

 

[Sam1911]

Good idea. You won't see many "empty-gun" starts in IDPA, but every once in a while some MD inserts something like...

1) "You're in bed with your gun unloaded in the nightstand and..."
2) "You just finished cleaning your gun and your loaded mag is sitting on the table when..."

Etc...

Just hope you never run into an empty mag stage! I've (once) seen a stage that started with one loaded mag and a box of ammo.

Hilarity ensued...

 

[Jim Watson]

True.
At the last three sanctioned matches in this area, I think there were two empty gun starts total. Several off body starts with gun on a table, in a range bag, or in The Box, though. So you need to practice picking up the gun as well as drawing it from a holster.
I have settled on grabbing the barrel or slide with my left hand and jamming the butt into my right hand, instead of trying to get a firing grip on the gun in an unusual position.

 

[Atom Smasher]

So I actually haven't attended any IDPA events, but have watched some Youtube videos of matches. How would an "in the range bag" or an "on the table" CoF begin? Literally I'd have my gun in a bag or sitting on a table? Or is that just flowery description for an empty-gun start? I feel like I'm in over my head already it's a good thing there's helpful people

 

[Sam1911]

In over your head? Oh don't worry at all. The great folks who work so hard to make it all happen will be perfectly happy to explain it all as you go. Just tell them you're new and ask questions! It's not that complicated, taken in small bites.

A gun in bag stage would start like this:

1) Your name is called, approach the starting position.
2) S.O. says, "Load and make ready," or something like, "Load and place the gun in the bag.
3) You draw the gun, and load it, keeping the muzzle pointed firmly downrange and your finger off the trigger. Then you place it in the bag, keeping the muzzle pointed firmly downrange and your finger off the trigger.
4) SO says, "Shooter ready?"
5) Nod.
6) SO says, "Standby...BEEEEP!"
7) You retrieve the gun, keeping the muzzle pointed firmly downrange and your finger off the trigger.
6) You shoot the stage, keeping the muzzle pointed firmly downrange at all time.
7) SO says, "If the shooter is finished, unload...
8) Remove the mag and pocket it.
9) "Show clear..."
10) Haul back on the slide and let him/her see the empty chamber.
11) "Slide forward, hammer down"
12) Drop the slide and pull the trigger, with the muzzle pointed firmly downrange.
13) "Holster"
14) So, like, holster the gun.
15) "Range is safe! Time was 3 years, 2 months, 14 days, six hours, 11 minutes, 37.04 seconds. Two procedural errors. Scoring! Down 0, down 0, down 1, down 5, down 8 failure to neutralize, down 10 FTN! ..." and so forth.

(O.k....I made that last one up...)

 

[SpentCasing]

Man these games really sound fun. Im finally getting confident enough in my ability (not to expect to win but good enough to have fun) that maybe this next year Im gonna give IDPA a try. Any northeast Ohio shooters here?

 

[waktasz]

why next year?

A guy brought his girlfriend who had NEVER FIRED A GUN BEFORE to the match I shot this weekend. She shot a borrowed revolver.

 

[mgmorden]

Man these games really sound fun. Im finally getting confident enough in my ability (not to expect to win but good enough to have fun) that maybe this next year Im gonna give IDPA a try. Any northeast Ohio shooters here?

As waktasz indicates - don't wait. Just go out to a match and give it a try. Nobody will ridicule a bad shooter. I've been to matches where a shooter literally was completely missing the target with more than half his shots, and nobody said a word. The only requirement is that you're safe with the gun. Keep your shots downrange and at least into the berms and they typically don't care .

Also, one key piece of info if you're "waiting to get better" - actually running a few matches will improve your shooting in a hurry, and that's what I like. I've only been shooting matches for a few months now (catching various local matches just about every weekend though), and I'm still nowhere close to finishing near the top, but if I look at my personal performance from match to match, I'm improving compared to previous runs. I'd been really intending to give this a try for at least a year beforehand, and I'm kicking myself for not getting involved sooner.

 

[ny32182]

Nothing will make you a better shooter than actually going to start shooting matches. There is no reason to "wait to get better". There are shooters of all different skill levels there, and you probably won't even finish last your first time out... but even if you do, that is how you learn.

Regarding the magazine question, the easiest way to state the rule is that, UNLESS THE COURSE DESCRIPTION SPECIFICALLY STATES OTHERWISE, all magazines have to have 10 in them at the time the start buzzer sounds. How you get to that point with your loading procedure is your business. The only requirement before the buzzer is that the gun stays pointed in a safe direction.

Personally, I would not use 10rd Clinton mags because they are going to be harder to seat with the slide closed. You will get through most courses with two mags, using the 3rd only for backup. Personally I would estimate I go to the third mag on no more than 5% of all stages. I would start with the 15 rounders; one in the gun, the other as my primary reload, and have the 10rd mag as my backup until I could get another 15rd mag.

 

[SpentCasing]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses/support. Im not gonna wait till next year so I'll be "better", only cause its gonna get really cold where I live soon, lol. Ive found a club near me and am thinking of at least showing up there to meet the people and get an idea of whats needed. Again, thanks for all the support.

 

[Sam1911]

Ive found a club near me and am thinking of at least showing up there to meet the people and get an idea of whats needed. Again, thanks for all the support.

If it is near enough, ask them if they have a regular practice night. We do -- every Thursday from 6:00 until whenever we head home. Anyone interested in IDPA is free to show up and run drills, practice stages, or just pick everyone's brains about how it all works.

 

[Vartarg]

New shooter

I'm 71 years old, and just participated in my first competitive shooting events in the last two months. Both were IDPA, and I shot a 1911 in CDP at the August match, and my Glock 17 in SSP this month. After the September match I was able to shoot a classifier and qualified as Marksman.

Apologies for hijacking the thread's original question, but simply wanted to confirm that if you go to IDPA, you'll be warmly welcomed and assisted at every turn by people who want to help you succeed. I've got a long way to go, but am looking forward to the challenge.

 

[ny32182]

In my experience, about 2/3rds of total newbies, regardless of age, need to get a few matches under their belt at least before they are competitive even at the "lowly" Marksman level. More often than not that even includes people who carry a gun all the time like cops, security professionals, etc. I'd say that a solid Marksman level shooter is more proficient with a pistol than 95% of all the nation's pistol owners, and probably at least 50% of all police officers, etc, based on people I see at square ranges and newbies at matches. Good job Vartarg.