Single Shot Rifle in 45-70?

[Aragon]

I would like to purchase a single shot rifle chambered in 45-70 to shoot in competition at a black powder rendezvous.

I would prefer something simple and something not too expensive. Maybe something along the lines of an H&R Handi Rifle or maybe their Buffalo Classic?

If I did my job would there be much difference between the two and would either get smoked by a Sharps replica or an 1885/1895 variant from a quality source?

I would also appreciate any information of suggested iron sights? Thanks.

 

[Stony]

Most rendezvous events tend to be period correct, in which case I would opt for something more along the line of a Sharps if I were you. The Sharps rifles will shoot rings around a Handi rifle...if using black powder. The Handi's in 45/70 shoot just fine with smokeless, but in my experience don't do well with black.

 

[StrawHat]

Why not consider the original, the Springfield Single Shot Rifle, commonly called the Trapdoor. With black powder and lead, they are plenty accurate and not that expensive to buy. I have one, built in 1878, that is a consistent 3MOA with no load development. I use a hollow based 405 grain bullet, black powder lube and 2f powder. Nothing fancy but a lot of fun.

Kevin

 

[FiveStrings]

+1 on the Trapdoor. Original rifles in great shooting condition can still be had for under $1000. Trigger pull can be stout but they are very accurate and enjoyable BPCR rifles, period correct, and look great. I am the biggest factor that limits what my 1884 is capable of.

 

[highpower]

Original Springfield Trapdoor rifles can be found for reasonable prices if you look around. I picked this one up an a trade a couple of years ago and I figure I have less than $500 in it. The bore is in mint condition and it is pretty accurate.

 

[Sunray]

1024 x 683 is too big.
Handi Rifle's are entry level hunting rifles, not target rifles. They aren't copies of anything either. If that matters.
Trapdoor's aren't target rifles either. I'd opt for a Sharps.

 

[jeepnik]

"If" you can afford a Sharps go for it. Mine will outshoot me any day of the week. It is a joy to shoot. But, due to what it cost it's a range only firearm.

On the other hand, my H&R Buffalo Classic is plenty accurate for hunting. And, I use BP in it. The cost wasn't so outrageous that if it were lost or damaged I'd regret it financially. I'd regret the loss of any firearm, but that's more of an emotional than financial thing.

Of note, I was amazed at what some 350 gr hp's loaded over BP did accuracy wise out of both rifles. I would have suspected, based on twist rate, that neither would have shot them worth beans. Goes to show sometimes things don't work out like you'd expect.

 

[cpt-t]

Aragon: I shoot both a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 and Pedersoli Rolling Block in 45-70`s and have for many years. I also have just started shooting an old friends orginal Springfield Trapdoor in 45-70 ever so often. All three shoot very well, and I use them at Mountain Man Rendezous and Cowboy Shoots as often as I can. I don`t shoot Black Powder how ever, I reload and use 35grs of IMR-3031 and 405 gr hard cast LRNFP bullets at about 1250 FPS to 1350 FPS out of these rifles. I shoot this reload for 95% of every thing I do with these rifles even Hunting, it is for me a very accurate and comfortable shooting reload. I wanted a Verniner Sight on the Sharps when I first got it and I ordered one, but the first two that came were broken and by the time I got the third one. I had got to where I really like the Ladder Sight`s that came on my Sharps so I have never even mounted that Verniner Sight. I have always just used the sights that came on my rifles. I don`t have any experience with the H&R Handi Rifles, so I can`t help You there. GOOD LUCK:
ken

 

[PapaG]

Had an H&R, stomped the crap out of me. Had a Rolling Block with Numrich barrel, stock and forend (under 4" at 200 yards, aperture sights and bpc legal). Had a couple trapdoors but none with a decent bore. Had a #1 in 458 which shot absolutely great with bp. Have a TC G2 and, while it probably wouldn't be street legal for bpc, shoots great.
My go to load is the Lyman 457124 of pretty soft lead, beeswax/alox, 5 grains DuPont bulk shotgun smokeless and 50 grains of DuPont ffg. Shoots clean all day, only about three patches to clean up before oiling and storing.

 

[Aragon]

Most rendezvous events tend to be period correct, in which case I would opt for something more along the line of a Sharps if I were you. The Sharps rifles will shoot rings around a Handi rifle...if using black powder. The Handi's in 45/70 shoot just fine with smokeless, but in my experience don't do well with black.

Thanks for this insight. I wonder why there is a difference between the BP and smokeless in this case?

 

[Aragon]

Why not consider the original, the Springfield Single Shot Rifle, commonly called the Trapdoor. With black powder and lead, they are plenty accurate and not that expensive to buy. I have one, built in 1878, that is a consistent 3MOA with no load development. I use a hollow based 405 grain bullet, black powder lube and 2f powder. Nothing fancy but a lot of fun.

Kevin

Thanks for the input. I am considering an H&R replica of the Trapdoor.

 

[Reloadron]

Nice trapdoor and that would be my choice. Mine was an 1887 Cartouche and likely I only regret parting with 3 rifles in my lifetime. That was one of them, it was pristine and I have yet to find a good replacement.

@ Sunray:

1024 x 683 is too big.

More than once you have complained about image size. Too big for what? At 72 pixels to the inch that image is about 14.2" x 9.5 and the file size is a tad over 2 Mb. All of those images should display fine on any somewhat current system using a decent monitor with a halfway decent internet connection. Those images look fine on my older junk and you seem to always be the only guy with image size issues? I am just questioning what you are looking at these pages with and what internet connection speed?

Ron

 

[Aragon]

1024 x 683 is too big.
Handi Rifle's are entry level hunting rifles, not target rifles. They aren't copies of anything either. If that matters.
Trapdoor's aren't target rifles either. I'd opt for a Sharps.

Then skip the thread. I for one am thankful of the great photos posted by "highpower."

 

[BCRider]

A nice rifle set up with the ladder style peep sights isn't going to come cheap regardless.

The H&R Buffalo Classic is the sort of thing that looks OK but it isn't really period correct. And if shooting from a bench or crossed sticks the need for breaking it to reload will cause a lot of clumsiness I figure.

I really like the break action rifles I've got. But they ARE a clumsy thing to use on a bench. And having just started with crossed sticks I figure that it would be even worse.

Along with the trapdoor option keep your eyes opened for a rolling block setup. They typically run at a cost of roughly the same as the various trapdoor options mentioned so far.

Or you may luck out and come across one of the Pedersoli or Uberti replicas of an 1885 falling block Winchester High Wall.

In any case if any of these are all set up with the peep sights be prepared to pay more as the peep sight set for front and rear cost as much as a good scope. And old fuzzy eyes NEED that peep to sharpen things up a hair. If you're lucky enough to have sharp vision you might be OK with regular iron sights. But the rest of us need our little peep cheat...

This sort of thing is the stuff where you know you want it and just can't seem to find a deal when you WANT to find it. Then one day when you've given up something suitable will darn near fall from the sky right into your lap for what amounts to a give away price.

 

[Hook67]

Thanks for the input. I am considering an H&R replica of the Trapdoor.

Good choice. I have the H&R Trapdoor Officer's Model. The tang sight that came on it was pure crap, so I had Lee Shaver adapt one of his soule staffs to the H&R base. Worked like a charm and the rifle sometimes will shoot close to MOA with jacketed/smokeless. I haven't been able to do that well with cast bullets, but it still will hold them to well under 3 MOA.

 

[loose noose]

I've shot some decent groups thru my sharps using the smokeless powder, however, my original Springfield Trapdoor with a pristine bore, prefers the Mil-spec 405grn soft lead that a Rapine mold puts out, along with 70 grains of 2F quality real BP. Note I've been using Swiss, Schuetzen, (spelling) and even Goex. I've been able to hit the large buffalo gong out at 500 yards, at least 8/10 times using this load. I've been using the original sights on it also. I do believe the reason that the Springfield rifle is so particular, is because the barrel diameter is a bit larger than that of the Sharps. On my Sharps using this set up (Mip-Spec) I've got several 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards using cross sticks, and have been able to hit that buffalo gong at least 6/10, using the tang veneer sights.

I'm not very familiar with the H&R, but I'm quite certain that the break open version is definitely not period correct for any type of period correct type shooting such as a rendezvous.

 

[GooseGestapo]

If looking for an accurate .45/70 s/s, I'd get a Browning '87.
I sighted a friends and worked some loads with it. Got some 2" groups at 100yds with buckhorn open sights. It really liked my load of 320gr FNGC over 30.0gr of #2400.

 

[drcook]

Cabelas has Pedersoli Sharps on sale. That is the minimum that I would get if you are truly serious about it, however they are a little over $1000.00 as are reproduction trapdoors (actually a bit over 1000.00)

If you get one of the better rifles (ie: starting with the Pedersolis), you should be able to shoot 2" to 3" groups at 200 yards with a little bit of load development using BP, tang sights and cross sticks. (assuming your eyes are OK). The Pedersolis and then upwards are capable of phenomenal accuracy

Keep in mind though, that the reloading components and sights can easily match the price of the rifle.

There are a couple venues for the serious shooter to gravitate to. BPCR, gong matches, long range paper target (1000 yds) etc. For the occasional cowboy side match though, you could get away with one of the less expensive break open rifles.

It is no fun if you cannot keep your loads on target.

Keep in mind that these old style rifles don't handle gas very well in the case of a mishap and you will find the serious target shooters will tend to recommend black powder above smokeless.

Last week at the Quigley Match a smokeless mishap blew up a rifle and the guy suffered very serious damage to his hand. There are few ways to blow up one using BP, ie: a squib and then shooting again, or possibly using 4F powder.

 

[Aragon]

Does anyone here know the difference between an H&R Model 155 Shikari and their current Handi Rifle? Thanks again.

 

[drcook]

the questions that have not been asked

chambered in 45-70 to shoot in competition at a black powder rendezvous.

what kind of competition are you talking about ? and what are the ranges and types of targets being shot at ?

and the rules of such competition ?

the answers to these questions might answer the question as to whether one of those types of rifles would suffice

 

[fireman 9731]

I love my H&R Buffalo Classic. I added a Smith Enterprises rear sight to be able to use more of the gun than the original rear Williams sight provided. It has shot everything from 350gr jacketed hollow points all the way up to 500gr lead very well. My favorite is a light load of trailboss under a 350 grain cast bullet. I have taken a few deer with it as well. While it certainly is no Sharps, it gets the job done and wont cost a mint.