Sizing without using the expander ball

[dodgestdshift]

I have been reloading the 25-06 for many years. When resizing cases, the expander ball is extremely difficult to pull out of the case. I think much of the expansion in the length of the case is caused by the drag of the ball. I have tried lubing the inside of the neck with dry white mica from midway, but it doesn't help much. I have even tried using the regular case lube but I worry about powder contamination, because it is difficult to remove. Since I am using jacketed boat tail bullets, I was wondering what would happen if I removed the expander ball from the die, and not expand the case neck.

Since I use a universal depriming die, and will try it with boat tail bullets I thought I would bounce the idea off all of you and see if there are any negatives to this approach.

 

[WayneConrad]

Walnut in the tumbler easily removes lube from the inside of the case neck. It is an extra step, however.

 

[ocabj]

Quite a few people remove the expander ball. For example, I remove it from my bushing style neck sizing dies for match rounds. The whole point of sizing with a specific size bushing is to get the neck sized to a specific tension. I don't need the expander ball messing with that. If anything, I only need to use the expander ball if the neck isn't concentrically round (ie: dent on the neck) that will require the expander ball to reshape the neck's roundness.

 

[dodgestdshift]

Wayne:

I do that now, but I find wallnut stuck to the inside of the neck of the case. This makes me wonder how effective it removes it. Even with the case lube the expander ball still drags.

 

[ribbonstone]

Believe that Redding once made carbide expander buttons...guess someone still does...they were a help in large production situations.

May aslo be a sign that your case necks are getting thick. Cases not only grow in length, requiring trimming, then tend to grow thicker necks as well. This can make for dangerous reloads if the case neck is thick enough to NOT allow the bullet to release when the round is fired.

So might give a measure to a loaded round's neck over the area where the bullet is seated, and compare that to a factory load.

 

[RyanM]

Removing it will result in more accurate ammo. If you don't bell the neck, and don't crimp, you get much more consistent neck tension, and thus better accuracy. With boat-tail bullets and a bolt action rifle, the combination of no bell and no crimp will work great.

 

[WayneConrad]

"I do that now, but I find wallnut stuck to the inside of the neck of the case."

Well, so much for my claim of "easily."

I'm puzzled that it doesn't work for you.

Just in case the devil is in the details: I've been using Hornady Unique lube... waxy stuff in a tub... and pretty dry walnut (now and then I dribble some Nu Finish in it, but it's been a few months since I did that). I sized a small batch of cases yesterday; the tumbler took a good hour of going "bzzzzzzz" before no walnut would stick to the inside of the neck, but the cases did eventually come clean with nothing sticking to them.

This idea of not using an expander ball at all is new to me, and very interesting. Thanks for asking this question.

 

[redneck2]

Lee Collet dies. No ball. Consistent neck.

If you're going to use the expander, take it out and polish it with real fine sandpaper (chuck it in a drill). The finish on some of them is pretty rough. Emery cloth with some oil on it works wonders.

Sometimes the stem is crooked or bent. I've read that you can put small O-rings under and over the body of the die where the shaft goes through. Lets the expander float.

 

[dodgestdshift]

Ribbonstone:

The cases just sized were once fired Federal factory loads (fired in another gun).

 

[snuffy]

"Since I use a universal depriming die, and will try it with boat tail bullets I thought I would bounce the idea off all of you and see if there are any negatives to this approach."

Won't work! A universal depriming die does not size the neck of any brass. Without sizeing the neck, your bullet would fall into the case with no neck tension,(and fall back out).

Now if you were to remove the expander ball from your full length sizeing die, then size normally, you MAY have a hard time seating a bullet. The expander is there for a reason, it expands the neck back up to a press fit for the bullet. You will need something to expand the neck to accept the bullet. Lyman makes the "M" die just for that reason. You size without an expander, then use the Lyman to expand it. The Lyman M die also has a belling feature if you run it further into the neck, cast bullet shooters use this a lot!

It sounds like you have one of a couple of things going on;
1. your brass is getting hard in the neck area
2. you size die over sizes, then your expander has to expand more to compensate.
3. you have too much thickness in the neck area. Neck turning would help that.
4. Use RCBS case slick spray case lube, it does not, will not contaminate powder OR primers. Just leave it inside the neck, no worries!

I agree with the use of the Lee collet neck sizer die. I'm slowly getting those for every caliber I load for. Talk about easy! Just run a fired case through that die, it's ready for priming and powder. No trimming, because there's no expander ball to stretch the necks.

 

[dodgestdshift]

Snuffy:

1) I don't expect the depriming die to size the neck, the sizing die does.

2) These cases were the first reload of a factory load.

3) Sizer die over sizes, possible, but I don't think so. My 30-30 dies act the same way.

4) Neck thickness, maybe, but see 2 & 3 above.

5) I use RCBS case lube - 2 out of a squeeze bottle. Is this the same stuff?

I am experimenting without the expander ball and with boat tail bullets. After that I will see if they will seat without damaging the case. I might even try to expand just the tip of the case as a separate step when I try to seat a flat base bullet.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[snuffy]

Nope, the case lube 2 is in a squeeze bottle, the case slick is in a pump spray bottle.
The case lube 2 says right on the bottle, "may cause primer/powder degradation." I wouldn't use the case lube 2 inside the neck unless you can be sure it is all removed.

 

[Ol` Joe]

I do what you are wanting to do in my 6.5x284 and 270 as I get a lot of run out with the expander pulling back through the case neck in these two. I deprime all my brass with a universal deprimer, tumble the cases, resize in the case of these two cartridges with the expander stem removed from the sizeing die. All other cartridges I reload don`t give me the problems these two do with their expanders and they are left in place.
When seating the bullets (flat base work as well as boat-tail they have a beveled base if you look close) I use Forster BR seaters with the collar that slides over the bullet holding it up right. The bullet is seated slowly and allowed to enter the case mouth on its own, I don`t try to pre-start it in the case.
I haven`t had any trouble when I do this and bullet induced run-out has been almost eliminated in these 2 cartridges when I do this. No lube is needed in the case mouth although I do use a VDL deburring tool on the mouths when I trim them. I read about doing this in a artical (by I think John Barsness) on reducing run-out and case stretch.
Go slow and don`t force anything.

 

[USSR]

dodgestdshift,

Removing the expander ball from the die is the best thing you can do; just not from your particular dies. Get yourself a set of Redding bushing dies and throw away the expander. The problem with removing the expander on a regular set of dies is, the neck size is reduced too much (in anticipation of the expander ball opening it up to the proper diameter), and even if you can get a bullet into the neck, the neck tension is too much for accuracy.

Don

 

[snuffy]

Excellent point Don! I bet that no matter how carefully you were to seat a bullet, whether it was a flat base or boat tail, it would shave copper from the sides of the bullet. Now you have a damaged bullet, lacking some of the jacket. What you are doing is expecting a soft copper,(guilding metal), bullet to do the job of a hardened steel expander ball.

Joe gets away with it by the use of a VLD chamfer tool and the excellent forster br seater. I read on another forum that the patent forster had on the inline seater ran out, so others have copied it, Hornady, Lee and probably some others, BUT none have EQUALLED it!

 

[Ol` Joe]

If the die is a RCBS the cheap fix is to send it and a couple cases to the manufacture and they will either expand the neck, or polish the expander ball to match your brass. And they`ll do it free! I believe Redding also offers this service. Drop them a e-mail and ask. Whom ever made your dies might take care of the problem for ya.

 

[dodgestdshift]

As some of you have predicted, I have had problems with the unexpanded cases, but now where you would have thought. Even though I didn't expand the case mouth, there was some (though less) expansion and the cases had to be trimmed. I couldn't trim because the .257 pilot would not go in the case. I don't want to use a 243 pilot, so it looks like I will have to expand.