Slickest clip-loading rifle system?

[Sheepdog1968]

^^ which is why my go-to deer rifle is a custom lightweight Krag sporter carbine, full length Mannlicher stock, with ghost ring rear sight and three flush Pachmayer sling swivels so I can use a "Ching Sling". It was built back when Colonel Cooper was mooting a Krag type action as a Scout Rifle action as one of the study-rifles for the Scout Rifle Conference. Cooper smiled when he saw it, and smiled more after he shot it.

The Krag rifle itself suffers from a locking system that only makes it suitable for cartridges of .30-40 pressures, but the magazine system would be adaptable to a stronger action without problem. The .30-40, BTW, is an excellent deer cartridge and was our first martial smokelss-only cartridge. Like the .30-30 the description is the caliber (.30) and the grains equal of a black powder loading. It was, however, never loaded with black powder.

I might mention that one of the features required for the Scout Rifle, as defined at the Scout ifle Conferences, was the ability to quickly reload "from the top", without interferance by a telescopic sight. The two branches of the tree were use of a forward mounted scope ahead of the action, and stripper clips or single cartridge loading, or a side-loader like the Krag where a normal scope could be used. We never considered the Krag ACTION to be suitable, but much study was made of the magazine. Bear in mind that at time suitable scopes for mid position mounting were only available from Burris, and in only one model, so we looked very carefully at an action that would allow conventional scope positioning while retaining fast "top up" loading. Nothing was as good as the Krags system. In the end is was easier to get scopes built than a new rifle action, and that's one reason the Scout Rifle looks like it looks today. I should write a long post about the development of the Scout Rifle, from Krag to Remington 660, to CZ, to Remington Model 7, to Steyr, the .308 v/s .350 Rem Mag concept, and "Why the Ruger Scout Rifle is not a Scout Rifle". Maybe when I get bored I will. In any event the design studies for that concept fits neatly with this concept.


Study the magazine system if you are serious about the design of a perfect tactical "zero-feature" carbine. Stripper clips allow you to rapidly load an EMPTY rifle. Krag style loading allows you to "shoot one, top up one, shoot two, top off two" as tactical reloads while maintaining the rifle closed and able to be employed immediately even when being reloaded. Think about this: You essentially need to shoot a Garand empty before reloading, or manually open it and eject a partially loaded clip "into thin air" and then replace that with a fresh clip in order to continue. Not exactly the best tactical reload. Stripper and en-bloc clips are inferior to the Krag in this important regard. You can "top up" a Krag while keeping it at your shoulder if you know how.


Willie


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I would love it if someday you could write the long review of the scout development. Personally, I settled on a 30-30 lever action with a scout scope. It tops off nicely as well. It may not fit all the criteria for a scout but I ended up liking it to the point where it is by far my favorite rifle to go to the range or hunting.

 

[444]

This doesn't really add anything to the thread since this has been mentioned several times previously but...............

I used most of the various clips over the years, since I was heavily involved in vintage military rifle matches. One of the last ones I tried was the clip for the K31. I had owned and shot the rifle for years and never even saw a clip for it. When I finally got them I was flat out amazed at how easy it was to load. And, like most people, I figured what looked like flimsy constrution wouldn't last. But mine are still going strong after about 10 years.

I agree that some clips were designed and built much better than others. My experience has been that a lot of the clips I got in mil-surp ammo were not easy to use. The ammo didn't always flow off of them when loading the gun. However, at some point I bought some clips for the '03 Springfield that were modern made (I believe from stainless) that worked very well also. So, it is possible to improve on the function of a clip if they are carefully made. The ones produced by the millions (mil-surp) are so-so. They work, but that's all.

Of course the en-bloc clip of the M1 is great because it isn't a stripper clip. But, like others who already posted, I never liked the fact that it wasn't easy to top off the magazine. I agree that it can be done, and I have done it, but it isn't easy.

 

[Mobuck]

Keep in mind that, immediately after facing the Mauser's stripper clip system, the US began the process of replacing the Krag.

 

[DavidMS]

What about the Johnson Rotary Magazine?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu70.htm

It looks like a winner. 10 rounds loaded via 1903 charger and can be topped off with the bolt closed.

 

[cluttonfred]

Absolutely, my grandfather had a book on the Johnson rifle and it has always fascinated me. The side-loading gate might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it definitely has potential, especially the ability to top off the magazine bolt open or closed. I am also intrigued by the short-recoil operation but that's something for another thread.

 

[barnbwt]

The Pedersen Rifle was way cooler . Anyone know how that crazy thing was loaded?

TCB

 

[Vaarok]

The Johnson reloads like a Mannlicher-Schonauer. You sometimes jam your thumb on the top edge of the loading port, or the loading gate doesn't quite pop back closed because the round isn't seated deeply enough in the magazine spool, but it works awright.

Being lefthanded, it's nice to be able to slap a clip in with my free hand, onehanded, as I shoot.

 

[allfouledup]

My vote is for the simplest clip. The Mauser 5 rounder (and the non-cardboard K31 stripper). I haven't any personal experience with the side loaders or en block types, but I have used the stripper types in M95, 96 & 98 Mauser's (Forget the M1891's, the stripper is held in place by an extension of the ejector box, adding a step to loading the full clip) and they all seem instinctive and fumble proof enough to me. You can use them with your eyes closed and not have anything slam shut on your digits. The only trick is to find the correct ones in good shape.