Small 9/40 Pistols - Why don't more manufacturers create them?

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Mr_Toad

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Hi, THR Folks,

QUESTION: Why don't more firearm manufacturers create small and slender 9/40 pocket pistols? Has anyone asked the manufacturers' reps about this?

:fire:

OPINION: In my opinion, 9 mm pistols larger and thicker than the Kahr PM9/ PM40 and KelTec PF-9 do not quality as SMALL. Are other manufacturers unable to do what Kahr can do?

EXAMPLES: Sig just made the P238 .380, so why don't they make it just a bit larger in 9 mm? The 9 mm Kahr PM9 is 5.3 x 4.0 at 14 ounces, and the 9 mm Keltec PF-9 is 5.85 x 4.3 at 12.7 ounces. (Walther PPS 9/40 and Glock 26/27 are larger and heavier.)

My apologies if this has been discussed before...

Robt.
 
I would love a 9mm or .40 Sig P238. Maybe these companies don't think people would like the recoil from a super small 9mm or 40. Kel-tec made a P40 the same size as the P-11, but stopped. Maybe someone should write to Sig or Walther or some of these other companies and find out what the hold up is. I didn't mention Glock because I doubt any amount of emails would get them to try a new design.
 
The smaller & lighter & more powerful an auto pistol gets, the harder it is to make it work.
And especially make it work for all people.

Kel-Tec discontinued the P-40 because they were overwhelmed with warranty returns for guns that had nothing wrong with them when shot by a person who didn't limp-wrest them.

They finally gave up and quit making them rather then continue to bear the cost in unnecessary warranty claims & damage to their reputation.

rc
 
The smaller & lighter & more powerful an auto pistol gets, the harder it is to make it work. And especially make it work for all people.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Even when they can get them to work, they sometimes need special attention (such as replacing spring in the Rohrbaugh R9 every 100 rounds. Yikes!). Granted, those guns are made to be carried, not fire a high volume of rounds. Mouse guns and larger calibers just don't usually mix well.
 
I'm sure that they have thought about it. They have probably built prototypes and done focus groups and if they aren't doing it it's because they have decided they couldn't make any money on it not because they haven't thought of it.
 
All of you make good points...

But...since Kahr can charge up to 600 dollars for a pocket 9 (and is about to release a new PM9 with a manual safety and night sights for $1000 MSRP) then I'd really like to see some other manufacturers get with the program.

Robt.
 
Well, I will tell you that I will not carry my KT P40 without alot of work, my hand is still sore from less than 2 mags last week, and I don't have a weak grip, but that gun makes think I do...
 
Marking them work properly becomes a BIG issue, frequently (but not always) due to operator error.

Or to take this question up on the revolver side...Imagine a .41Mag/.44Mag/.45Colt made up like some of the S&W "Ultra-Light-Tanium" .38/.357 revolvers...say 17 or 18 ounces of gun in .44Mag. Now, load that thing up with some of the 'just-this-side-of-thermonuclear' loads and blaze away. My bet would be that after a couple of cylinders, a lot of shooters would be claiming "this is the most inaccurate POS gun ever made...."

I have shot a couple of the smaller models mentioned in previous posts...not my cup-o-tea. Smallest 9MM I can shoot well is the Bersa Thunder.
 
Comes a time...

When one must pay proper attention to physics...
Shorter/smaller is a bit like cell phones and handguns:
Submissive to a minimal point, the human hand can no longer efficiently operate certain devices (or, as transferred; handguns).

I have been very, very picky over the last 7-8 years, to find an "ideal" handgun to suit my particular needs and requirements. I found that weapon to be the Walther PPS-.40cal. NOT necessarily light (or Chich') - but absolutely, adequately functional in a dire situation.!!!!

Tired, and enough said tonight. Best Q2
 
As was said, making small pistols in powerful calibers (yes, 9mm is a powerful caliber) work properly is problematic. Also, for every person who can adequately shoot a micro handgun in 9mm or .40, there are a lot who can't. This leads to returns and a lot of badmouthing. Also, the smaller you make the guns, the more likely they are to fail or have major parts breakage issues- or, you need to really carefully engineer and build them, which equates to higher costs. Or, you need to have an expectation that it will be a low-roundcount weapon (which isn't always understood, which can then lead to breakage, which then leads to badmouthing...) All of this means bad things for the profit margin. Since companies exist to make money...

You'll reach a point where you just can't physically make them smaller. You'll also reach a point at which it is not economically feasible to make them smaller, too. You'll reach the latter point first.

Mike
 
As you may know, Taurus has the PT 709, which is a single stack 9mm. I think it is similar in size to the Kel Tec.
 
Same reason they don't make pocket pistols that can take an elk at 100 yards, does not kick and holds 30 rounds. Cause our pockets are not big enough!!!
 
Glock

You know, Glock made the slim line single stack 45. It's nice but a little large. I've often wished they would take the 26 and 27 and slim them down to single stack. You could probably get 7 rounds of nine and 6 of 40. Now build that make it the same hight and length as the 26 and 27, but on ly an icn or side wide, and that'd be the best back up gun on the market for us LEO's with smaller hands.
 
If no one has mentioned it yet, there's the Walther PPS which is of modest size and very thin. It's not a micro gun by any means, but it is very comfortable and pleasant to shoot (unlike most micro guns)

Mike
 
Why can't they make the PPK in a 9mm?

The PPS is the same size (although different shape) as a PPK. The Kahr MK9 is about the same size. Ditto for the Colt Pocket Nine. The Rohrbaugh R9 is even smaller and lighter.

So why can't somebody make the PPK in a 9mm?
 
I find my S&W CS9 fits this niche PERFECTLY. Small and light enough to pocket carry comfortably, big and thick enough grip to handle like a full sized gun. I can shoot as many rounds through it at the range as I can with my full size 9s no problem.
 
So why can't somebody make the PPK in a 9mm?
Click to expand...

The PPK has a fixed barrel so it would need a really heavy recoil spring so the gun wouldn't beat itself to death. It would kick like a mule too. Mark
 
The PPK is a blow-back action designed for reletavely low power .32 ACP & .380 ACP cartridges that run about 21,000 PSI pressure.

The 9mm cartridge develops about 35,000 - 38,500 PSI or nearly twice as much pressure.

If it could fit in a PPK, which it can't because it is too long, one round would probably blow the lightweight slide off the gun and stick it in your eye!

9mm handguns have to use a locked-breach design, or else the slide & recoil spring has to be so heavy (like a Hi-Point) nobody would want one.

rc
 
There are a couple of others of similar size as the Kahr. The Taurus 709 is one. The Springfield EMP and the STI Rogue are 1911 style small 9mm pistols. The Rogue is of particular interest to me -- 3 inch barrel, only 21 ounces. Both the STI and the SA are pricey, $1,000 or slightly above.
 
  • railroader said:
    The PPK has a fixed barrel so it would need a really heavy recoil spring so the gun wouldn't beat itself to death. It would kick like a mule too. Mark
    Click to expand...
  • rcmodel said:
    The PPK is a blow-back action designed for reletavely low power .32 ACP & .380 ACP cartridges that run about 21,000 PSI pressure.

    The 9mm cartridge develops about 35,000 - 38,500 PSI or nearly twice as much pressure.

    If it could fit in a PPK, which it can't because it is too long, one round would probably blow the lightweight slide off the gun and stick it in your eye!

    9mm handguns have to use a locked-breach design, or else the slide & recoil spring has to be so heavy (like a Hi-Point) nobody would want one.

    rc
    Click to expand...
Let me re-clarify what I was trying to say. I didn NOT mean to take the existing PPK design and rechamber it for a 9mm.

What I was trying to say is that given the fact that there are 9mm pistols the size of the PPK (Kahr PM9, MK9, Colt Pocket Nine, etc.), I would like to see something the size, shape AND weight of the PPK chambered in 9mm. It should be do'able given the fact that there are 9mm guns even smaller than the PPK (Kel-Tec PF9, Rohrbaugh R9, etc.).
 
Recently bought a Kahr in 9MM. I don't care much for the muzzle flip of the 9MM in such a small pistol. My Walther ppk/s or even my P64 don't flip near as much. With minimal exposure to "small" 9MM pistols, if this is how they shoot I don't want another. Sometimes the larger calibers just have to be in a little bit larger frame to control them.
 
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