Small Pistol Philosophy Question

[Nightcrawler]

I once asked what purpose the .380 Auto round served. In the old days, it could be chambered in smaller guns, as older metallurgy prevented putting the high-pressure 9x19mm round into a very small pistol.

These days, that's obviously not so. Pistols like the Kel-Tec P11 are quite abundant, and are easily as small as classic compact, blowback pistols, like the PPK, Makarov, and others. And they fire a more powerful cartridge.

I was told that the .380 round will live on because no matter how small a gun 9x19 can be put in, .380 can be put in a smaller one, like the NAA pistols. I suppose that this is true.

Nevertheless, small blowback pistols in .380, 9x18, and other rounds continue to be manufactured, and continue to be popular, though there are 9mm and .40 breech locked pistols that are just as small and light. Examples include the CZ-83 and the Walther PPK, which remains in production.

So what's the scoop? Don't get me wrong, I like these pistols. I want both a Makarov (though the Bulgarians seem to have run out) and a CZ-83 (preferably in 9x18 Mak, if I can find one).

But, what advantages do they offer (if any) over the more modern subcompact breech-locked designs? Does a blowback .380 have less recoil than a breech-locked 9mm of the same weight? Are there any particular advantages to the blowback design?

How come these small pistols are made in blowback in the first place?

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. The blowback pistol is easier to manufacture which is why some of the lower quality companies offer primarily weapons of this type. This is NOT saying that all blowback pistols are of lesser quality, just some.

Some say that the blowback pistol has "sharper" recoil in say .380 than a locked breech 9mm.

IF the fixed bbl's and the slide are properly mated such that the sight's remain in a constant relationship with the bore when the weapon's being fired, these pistols are frequently capable of stellar accuracy.

While I own some blowback centerfires in .380 and 9x18mm Makarov, I really cannot say that they offer anything over the smaller 9mms, .40s, etc as such pistols are most usually used for self-protection carry or backup pistols as the latter are considerably more powerful.

Best.

 

[Nightcrawler]

In America, that's true (about the weapons being used for Backup). The Europeans and Russians seem to have a very different philosophy on pistols, or at least did up until recently. Police in europe routinely carried 9mm Kurtz (.380) pistols as sidearms, and the Russians used the Makarov pistol for like forty years, and it remains in service (though Spetsnaz units have adopted the CZ-75, and new small-bore, high velocity pistols are being adopted in some cases to penetrate armor).

 

[Blackhawk]

Blowback designs are simple relative to a locked breech design. However, the recoil spring has to absorb the full shove of the casing when it fires. A high pressure round like the 9x19 (35Kpsi) would require a much stronger spring than the low pressure 9x17 (14Kpsi) -- so strong perhaps, that a young mountain gorilla might be the only one who could rack it.

The Rohrbaugh R-9 is about the same size as the Kel-Tec P-32, but it fires a full 9x19 (9mm Luger) round, and it's a locked breech design that takes advantage of modern materials as you correctly figured would solve the mechanical problems. It's going to debut a month from now at the SHOT Show in Orlando.

Kel-Tec is also debuting a .380 variant of its P-32 -- same size and weight for all practical purposes. It's a locked breech like the P-32, too.

The NAA and Seecamp mouse guns are blowback designs. AFAIK the ONLY mousers that are locked breech will be those three.

Some consider the Kel-Tec P-11 (lighter but effectively the same size as a PPK .380) to be pocket guns, but they're really sub-compacts -- a bit big for pocket carry. Of course, some people can wear big enough pockets to stow a Desert Eagle in, but that's not the point.

 

[KY Moose]

IMHO, the only reason hanguns will continue to be chambered in .380 is because of the market in other countries. The countries where the .380 is so popular, are for the most part ones that only allow it's citizens to own handguns chambered in non military calibers.

I am not sure if handguns chambered in .40 S&W and .357 Sig will catch on in those countries that only allow non military caliber handguns. I think it is safe to say the .380 will be around for a long time for that very reason.

 

[alamo]

The new KT P-3AT (.380) should change that a bit as the Guardian .380 has to some extent. The .25 used to be the only commonly available true pocket gun, now the .32 is the most popular. A .380 in a pistol basically the size of a P-32 should be a big hit. The knock on pocket guns was the small caliber so there is definitely a demand for a true pocket gun in a larger caliber. Kel-Tec makes .380 already on a P-11 frame for export only, no demand for those here when you can get a 9MM in the same package.

 

[Coltdriver]

I have to agree with your general observations.

However, one reason for the .380's potential extended life in this country is the development of better and better ammo.

There is a round out there made by RBCD (www.rbcd.net) that actually makes the little .380 a viable defense round if a very small gun is a must have criteria for you.

I have owned and fired both the blowback and locked breech varieties of .380's and the blowback style is (for me) far too sharp of a recoil for such a small round. YMMV

 

[jc2]

The blowbacks all are generally flatter (narrower in the slide) than the locked breech which, for me, makes a much better/more comfortable carrying weapon both in the pocket and IWB. This is particularly true when compared to the modified Browning lock-up (Glock, Sig, Kahr and some S&Ws).

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

Coltdriver has it right...

RBCD .380 is what is in my Mustang Pocketlite. (Also ivory grips and a shark skin belt holster! Sorry but, I had to get that in. I love my Mustang!)

KR

 

[mete]

There is a very significant difference in the recoil of different designs. One day I tested a remington M51 ( delayed blowback) CZ 24 (locked breech) and Mauser HSc (blowback).The softest recoil was the M51 , the worst was HSc. But if you are using the gun for defense then get a 9mm You can get good small 9mm pistols and they are significantly better performers than the 380 and for that reason I think 380 is obsolete.

 

[Dave R]

I'm such a hypocrite.

I carry my P-11 because of the firepower. 11 rounds of 9mm is just more comforting than 8 rounds of .380.

But I enjoy shooting my .380 more (FEG APK MK II). Its more accurate and more ergonomic.

Its also easier to carry. Slightly thinner than the P-11 and more comfortable in an IWB holster, especially after many hours.

I don't think someone who carries a Bersa Thunder or a P-230 is at a tactical disadvantage. They still have 3 more rounds than a .38 snubbie, equivalent stopping power if you believe in Marshall & Sanow, and a bit better concealbility with no bulky cylinder to deal with.

So I sing the praises of the .380, and carry my 9mm.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

I think I posted something like this before. I believe that there are only 4 necessary calibers in autoloaders:

.22
.32
9mm
.45

The .22 for cheap target practice, plinking, and small game.

The .32 for very light, small self defense backup pistols (like a Seecamp or KelTec P32). Today's modern .32 self-defense round is pretty much equal to the .380.

The 9mm, to me, is the quentesential all around pistol round. Modern 9mm ammo is controllable, an effective stopper, and can be loaded in a hi-cap magazine. Small 9mm pistols like the Kahr MK9/PM9 all but obsolete a .380.

When you want to have knock down power to clear a room, and you know what you are doing, then go with an effective .45 round. If I want something more powerful than a 9mm, it would be a .45 +P.

.25
.380
.40
.357S&W

These calibers fit in between the major niches. I see no need for them. Especially the .40, which was invented to sell handguns to law enforcement after that FBI shootout thing, which had nothing to do with handgun effectiveness, but rather handgun ineffectiveness against .223 rifles (Mini-14).

Just my two cents.

 

[Apple a Day]

9x17s and 9x18s will never die.
1)Reliability! The simpler the design/ the fewer moving parts, the more reliable a gun will be.
2)Accuracy. They have fixed barrels.
3)Cost. The simpler, the cheaper to manufacture.
You can make a small pistol with moving parts but you can always make it just a little smaller if the parts don't need room to move.

 

[emann]

Hey bad_dad_brad, It could just as easily go like this. I think I posted something like this before. I believe that there are only 4 necesssary caliber's in autoloader's: .22, .380, 357 Sig and 10mm. In fact I vote mine.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

Hey emann, at least we agree on the .22.

Let us agree to disagree on the others.

 

[jsalcedo]

I'm not a huge fan of blowback .380s The kick is way too sharp
and the slide tends to rip up my hand.

The only exception is my Dad's 1908 colt officers model. It is a sweet shooter and seems to be slimmer and more rounded than 90% of todays pocket pistols.

Other than that I can't think of any .380's blowback or otherwise
that are decent. Even the Walther PPKS is uncomfortable to shoot.

I like the makarov and the small CZ pistols a little more because of
the better ergonomics for those with large hands.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Okiecruffler]

Back before I became civilized and started carrying wheelguns again, I carried a Keltec P-11. The Wife couldn't shoot it, the recoil was just too stout in a small gun. However, she could shoot my Sphinx AT380 with no problem, and usually shoot tighter groups than I could. That's why I think the .380 will be around a while longer.

 

[Herb Fredricksen]

Small Pistol, etc. One man's philosophy

My son likes my pocket pistol collection and would like to buy a small pistol for himself. His wife says he already has one gun, a full size 9mm, why does he need another? Sound familiar?

Its funny, but when she was recovering from surgery and wanted protection at her bedside she felt his pistol was too large so I loaned her my Beretta 21A, which she found perfect for her need. She's recovered now and doesn't need my 21A. She saw the need for a smaller pistol once, now she doesn't believe in them.

Somehow I find her attitude parallel to that of those who say they don't see the need for anything smaller than a .45 or a 9mm hicap or a .357 snub, etc. Certainly its the same as saying small calibers should have been off the market long ago. Amazing how anti-gun these arguments sound yet they come from gun lovers.

Look in your kitchen drawer and tell me how many different sizes you have of knives, forks and spoons and convince me that the little ones must go. Then look in your tool drawer and convince me the small tools have no purpose. I won't believe it. Nature loves diversity, within normal ranges, and somewhere between that which is too small to hold and fire and too large to hold and fire is the normal range of firearms. If you don't personally enjoy the full range, no problem, but recognize that others might.

My attitudes and tastes in firearms have changed over the years, I hope my daughter-in-law's will, too. I assume my current thinking is better for me than my prior thinking. Somehow new flexible thoughts replaced old hard thoughts. Good thing for me they were not cut in stone, ie, Top Ten Guns, Best Round, etc.

Yesterday I couldn't spell philospher, now I are one.

Herb Fredricksen,