Smith 625 .45 Long Colt questions, How tough is it?

[jonsidneyb]

I have read many places that the earlier .45 Long Colt Smiths were not heat treated the same as the Model 29s but that the latest ones are. I know that the 625 LongColt is going to have thinner metal than the 29 and that they cylinder notches are another factor as well.

What I really want to know is if the higher pressure factory loads are ok in the 625. No high pressure handloads what so ever. I am getting conflicting information on this. Some will tell me if I want a magnum then get a magnum but there is a reason I am asking this. I just want to know if the top hunting factory loads are safe in a 625.

 

[bpisler]

I would keep the high pressure 45
colt loads out of my 625,most are
designed for ruger S/A's and others
like it.Cor-bon and Buffalo Bore
both have hunting loads designed
for the smiths www.corbon.com
and www.buffalobore.com

 

[jonsidneyb]

Ah, I see now. I missed earlier where it said Older Smiths.

I would not be feeding one a steady diet of Heavy stuff even if it could take it.

I am thinking of a 625 as a truely dual purpose gun.

I was encouraged that the .45 acp versions were being converted by Clark Custom for the .45 Roland.

I guess that means the 625 LC mountain guns have potential for occational use via Corbon or Buffallo

 

[SaxonPig]

The problem lies not with the tempering but with the thickness of the chamber walls. When an N frame cylinder is bored for a .45 caliber round the walls are left pretty thin. High pressure loads are not recommended for any S&W in .45 Colt.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, the "problem" lies with end-shake. While Smiths are not as brute strong as Rugers (what guns are?), they can take quite a bit of pressure. The cylinder stop is offset, so it doesn't cut into the thinnest part of the chamber wall (the same is true of the Colt New Service.)

Firing heavy loads, however, generates recoil forces that hammer the back of the cylinder aganst the recoil shield, battering the frame itself. With a steady diet, the frame can stretch microscopically. That tiny amount of stretch gives the cylinder a bit more run-up when it batters the recoil shield, increasing the impact, and producing more stretch, and so on and so on.

A Smith can easily handle 45 Colt loads in the 23,000 CUP range (the SAAMI limit is 14,000 lbs), but firing too many of these will shorten you revolver's life span.

I put "problem" in quotes up there because it's only a problem if you have to have hairy-chested, butt-stomping loads. You can drive a 255 grain bullet to 1,000 fps from a Smith with loads that do not over-stress the gun, and that's enough for almost any purpose.

 

[jonsidneyb]

maybe a little twist on this.

I was thinking of trying to find a late model 625 long colt but I see that Clark Custom is doing conversions to .460 Roland on the .45 ACP revolvers.

I am thinking that the LC is still better of a game gun than the Rowland but I am not sure how much better it is.

I will want to shoot but subsonic loads for some applications to not have the ear splitting supersonic crack and once in awhile shoot heavy loads for larger stuff.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I would go with the .45 Colt -- buying a .45 ACP version and paying for a .460 Rowland conversion will cost a lot more than buying a .45 Colt at the outset.

And the .460 Rowland doesn't solve any problems -- you can't load it to any pressures higher than the .45 Colt version will take, and you will still get frame battering and end shake from a steady diet of high-pressure, high-recoil loads.

Your intended use shows the .45 Colt is fine for your purpose. You'll shoot a lot of light, mild recoil loads, and occasionally some heavy recoil loads -- but probably very few in total -- just enough to re-zero and take a deer now and then.

 

[jonsidneyb]

The nice slow big subsonic loads will be easy for me to pick out.

Of the Corbon loads, the way I read it, any of them can be used as long as I don't use to many.

I shoot alot of .357 magnum and the recoil does not bother me even out of a J-Frame but .44 magnum, I don't like to shoot alot of it and I would feel the same about hot .45 long colts. I would shot enough to be able to hit with the strong stuff then shoot milder stuff alot.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking it's hairy-chested and manly to fire a lot of full-charge loads in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt. You can usually spot these people at the range by the way they close their eyes and cower each time the hammer falls.

Shoot a thousand mild loads in practice and loafing around for every a half-dozen full-charge loads you use zeroing and deer hunting.

 

[Onmilo]

950 fps is about as fast as I will push a bullet out of my personal 625 MG.
I need something faster I will grab the .44 Magnum.

 

[only1asterisk]

The 625 is not so weak as some would have you believe, but that shouldn't be taken as license to do anything stupid. The Buffalo Bore standard pressure 255 grain load would be good for deer and pigs, but is it ever pricey! I don’t know at what pressures CorBon is running their lighter 2 45 Colt hunting loads, but they are right at my self imposed limits.

For what you pay for 200 rounds of either you could set up to reload and buy all the components for your first 200 rounds I would have no problem loading 45 Colt to 45 ACP +P pressures for use in a 625 for my personal use. That works out to 300 grain bullets at 1050-1100 or 280’s at 1100-1150. There is very little that takes much more killing than that.


David

 

[SaxonPig]

Vern, S&W does indeed cut the cylinder bolt notch directly over the thinnest part of the chamber. Colt revolvers are off-set, not six-shot S&Ws. On a .45 S&W chamber the metal separating the bolt notch cut from the chamber wall is shockingly thin.

I worry much more about the top half of the cylinder leaving the gun than I do about "end-shake" which is simply wear on the gun and doesn't pose an immediate threat of injury like blowing the cylinder open with a hot load does.

I'm sure there are shooters out there hot rodding their 25-5s but I think it's a bad idea.

 

[Richard]

I am sure Vern is spot on. If I want to have a session with "manly" 44 mags I use my Ruger Super Blackhawk. If it is for an enjoyable time I shoot S&W 44s. Regards, Richard

 

[Stainz]

I had a cylinder blow on my 629MG, peeling the topstrap from the back upwards, and sending the rear sight off in three pieces. I was fortunatel unhurt, other than my pride. My safety glasses were nicked. The final assessment, from S&W, was that a round had 'jammed' in the lead build-up ahead of the rim step - from firing an afternoon's worth of .44 Russian and Special lead rounds - without my usual cleaning before going to a longer .44 Magnum cased round. Having only one box of homebrews left, unfortunately my 300gr LSWC over 6.2gr Titegroup for ~870 fps from my 4.6" BHG-equipped SBH in .44 Magnum cases. I had shot over 500 of those rounds in my MG, SBH, and 6" h-l 629 - recoil was just acceptable with the short rounded Ahrends cocobolo stocks on my 629MG. I loaded six - it blew on the fifth round.

I first blamed my ammo - tried to duplicate a 'double' charge - no way. The case would only hold 12.1 gr before that long bullet would compress the charge. Of course, without any powder, a second pull on my Dillon 550 was far easier than a 'fresh' cartridge pull - I would have noted that. I then looked at the remnants of my cylinder - and found the 'slick' ramplike area ahead of the rim. The mailer arrived from S&W that day, and away it went. Sadly, by the time I determined that, I had dissected something over 350 of those rounds, only to find that the Dillon 550 meters Titegroup very consistently - and in agreement with two other scales, too.

The break in the cylinder walls appeared causal - and non-ductile. The blown chamber separated the outer wall over the adjacent chambers, too - pressure-crushing both the empty fourth round and the un-fired sixth round. The frame was cracked at the barrel threading, permitting it's easy removal. The barrel and stocks were unhurt - and little if any recoil and noise was made by the errant round. I will carefully clean my .357's and .44 Mag's after shooting short rounds from now on, you can be sure of that. I will continue to shoot only .45 Colts in my 625 MG's - and leave the few Schofields for a Ruger. Also, the GA Arms defensive .45 Colt rounds, the 200gr Gold Dots @ 1,123 +/-8 fps from my 625MG, will only be loaded infrequently. My mainstay of 200/250gr LRNFP's and 255gr LSWC's, from 720-870 fps, will be my main use in my 625MG's (I recently traded for another 625MG - great gun!). I have a 5.5" RH should I need more 'emphasis'... the 625MG's are simply too nice to blow up/shake loose with hot rounds... the proper tool sort of thing, I suppose.

Stainz

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, S&W does indeed cut the cylinder bolt notch directly over the thinnest part of the chamber. Colt revolvers are off-set, not six-shot S&Ws. On a .45 S&W chamber the metal separating the bolt notch cut from the chamber wall is shockingly thin.

I worry much more about the top half of the cylinder leaving the gun than I do about "end-shake" which is simply wear on the gun and doesn't pose an immediate threat of injury like blowing the cylinder open with a hot load does.

I don't have a Smith to look at (I'm partial to Colts.) I have my Colt New Service made in 1906, and, silly me, I thought "If Colt knew the answer a hundred years ago, surely Smith and Wesson has figured it out by now."

Note we have an account of a Smith blowing up, posted just above. But this was not associated with firing an overcharge. It's unlikely a carefully-constructed handload will blow up a gun, unless you intend it to.

On the other hand, it's very likely that a steady diet of hot loads will wear a gun out.

 

[SDGlock23]

I have a 625 MG in .45 Colt. The problem isn't in the cylinder so much as it's in the frame, it isn't as robust as say, my Ruger Blackhawk. You can fire heavy loads out of the MG, but I wouldn't do very often. I like to keep mine loaded with 255 gr cast @ 950-1050 fps. Not the hottest load, but it just plain gets the job done on anything you'd want here in the lower 48 states.

Check out these articles:

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

Check out the bottom of this article for a work on the S&W Mountain Gun:

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Articles/HEAVYWEIGHTBULLETSPART1/tabid/199/Default.aspx

 

[S&WIowegan]

Blowups

Stainz experience mirrors that of a friend who had an S&W 627 8-shooter blow off the top end of his gun during an IPSC-style match. His handloads were Titegroup and copper-plated bullets made on a Dillon 650. He pulled and weighed lots of rounds and found no double charges (hard to do on a 650). I actually chatted with Jerry Miculek about it and we all have concluded the cause must have been a barrel obstruction. Plated bullets have been known to shed jackets so maybe that was it.

S&W would not sell him another 627 but they did sell him a 625 at factory price No one was hurt and the gang at the match was unable to find any of the blown off pieces

As a long-time handloader and revolver shooter, I don't believe S&Ws are weak (compare the cylinder walls of a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt to a Smith before you say anything), but I certainly agree that shooting heavy loads will gradually create end shake. I have a 625 I've been shooting factory and light handloads in for 10 yrs. and it is showing moderate endshake. The point is it sure takes a lot of rounds to get there.

Good shooting to all and ENJOY

Bob.

 

[JoeHatley]

I guess that means the 625 LC mountain guns have potential for occational use via Corbon or Buffallo

I've run a few boxes of the Corbon stuff through mine, and it's held up well.



Joe

 

[Sport45]

That's a fine gun Joe has pictured. I wish I had one.

I have a Redhawk in .45 Colt with a 5 1/2" barrel. Can't get to photobucket now to post a picture of mine, but I did find this on the 'net.

Compare the top strap thickness between Joe's 625 and this Redhawk.

I don't use the "Ruger Only" loads, but I can see why they exist.

 

[Tom C.]

My S&W .45s are .45 ACP/AR. I mostly use .45 AR in them. I load them with fairly mild loads. My .45 Colts are Ruger Blackhawks and a Redhawk. I can load them hotter, but why? I enjoy them so much with mild loads. I only load them with +P loads once in a while for a change of pace or to blow something to pieces, like bowling pins.