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Smith 686-6 won't reliably set off primers.

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Well,
Your understanding of how timing on a car works is correct.

If all of the mechanical movements of the action, was constant and solely dependent on trigger pressure alone, to operate. Maybe.

Since just about every movement, takes a SPECIFIC spring either for original impetus,or to return to a specific position, that the rest of the mechanism requires for proper function. I don't think so.

Your statement is the equivalent of saying spring pressure doesn't matter.

It takes specific springs in length, and strength to function properly.

You can not separate, force of spring from speed of spring. It is directly proportional.

Semantics wise if your car timing was correct, then it would be in time.
 
It does require springs to function. No argument there.

However...

You're confusing "Time" with "Timing."

The rate of the spring has naught to do with when and where the hammer breaks and when the bolt locks the cylinder. Those things are timed...just like barrel linkdown or cam down in a tilt-barrel locked breech pistol. The recoil spring has nothing to do with it because it's mechanically fixed.

Again...You can remove the recoil spring from a 1911 pistol and fire it...and barrel timing will be unchanged.

Install as heavy or as light a mainspring and rebound spring in a revolver as you wish. The cylinder will still lock into battery at the same place...and the hammer will break after moving X degrees through its arc. The spring's rate and tension doesn't mean a thing during those functions.
 
I am not confused in spite of having talked about automotive engine timing and 1911s and probably other stuff.

In an effort to be less confusing, we could have just talked about revolvers.

The example of the hammer working, regardless of slide spring is precisely my point, separate mechanical functions requiring different springs. You realize of course FIRING the gun without the slide spring would not be proper function. Which was the original point. Even if its a 1911, and not a revolver.

Your understanding of the difference between time and timing. Semantics.

Is different than mine, not confusing.

Lets pretend you convinced me.:cool:
 
Semantics. heh *sigh*

tsk tsk.

I'll try one more time, and leave you to your beliefs.

In 500 words or less...explain how a different spring rate will have an effect on cylinder hand up...lock into battery...and the hammer's break point.

These are timed events. Mechanically timed. Fixed.

Timing doesn't change with speed. Only parts wear affects timing. A properly "timed" Smith & Wesson locks the cylinder just before the hammer breaks. If the hand and/or ratchet wear...its timing is late. The cylinder on an older Colt revolver "times" just as the hammer breaks. Neither has anything to do with spring rates.

The mainspring only affects the hammer's speed...time...in reaching the frame after it breaks. Time...not timing. Or, locktime if you prefer. The hammer will break at the assigned point in the cycle regardless of how fast or slow you pull the trigger. Timing...not time.

See it?

No?

The rebound spring only affects the trigger and hammer speed to reset after the trigger is released. Time...not timing.

The ignition system and autopistol recoil spring points were analogies in an effort to get you to understand the difference between time and timing.

And, yes. I understand how pistols and revolvers function quite well, thank you.

Cheers!
 
Revolver "timing".

Lockup happens at a "point in time" which remains unchanged regardless of the spring strength or the speed with which the parts gets to that "point in time".

:)
 
O.K. Tuner!

You got me convinced at least!! :D

But I have never ever had to re-time a revolver after changing out springs anyway!

And neither did anyone else, unless it was already out of time to begin with.

rc
 
Hey hey RC! Was wonderin' where you were.

Look at it like this...

The mainspring's only function is accelerating the hammer forward. That's the only job it has.

The rebound spring's only function is driving the rebound slide forward to reset the hammer and trigger.

Neither of these functions is timed. All the timing happens before the hammer breaks.
Bolt drop...hand-up...bolt releases and enters the bolt slot.

That's it. That's all.

So...How can the springs affect any of that?

They can't...and don't.
 
I'm sorry, I only just now realized you were a Moderator.

When you replace springs , do you use recommended springs , or just wing it.

Do you guess the recommendation is based on something.

Some completely misunderstood or irrelevant VALUE, that determines suitability for proper function of the firearm.
 
I never just wing it, Ruger. I'm not a kitchen-table hack.

Never mind the moderator thing. When I get involved in a discussion, it doesn't apply unless it becomes insulting...and I generally allow a member more leeway for insulting me than another member. I will, however, reply in kind...within the limits of civility.

My main work has been with 1911 pistols...for over 45 years...but I'm also intimately aquainted with Smith & Wesson revolvers, and have done a lot of work on them...mostly action tuning. I haven't done any money work in some time, being retired. I'm a toolmaker by trade, with some engineering and design experience. I was raised by an engineer, so it sorta came with the territory.

Whenever somebody approaches me about an action tune-up, I try to steer them toward stock springs. Failing that, I strongly advise them to stick with the Wolff kit, and to use the heaviest of the three rebound springs supplied if the gun was to be carried for serious purposes. Range-only gun...it didn't matter.

But not because lighter springs change the timing of the revolver. They don't. The stronger rebound spring insures positive, fast trigger/hammer reset. Otherwise, the shooter in a hurry can pull the trigger before the function completes and locks the gun up until the trigger is deliberately released. That can get a man killed if things get hairy.

A strong mainspring insures reliable ignition. That's the mainspring's primary function...its only real function. My standing advice whenever a Wolff mainspring is installed is to order two, and change it after about 2500 rounds. I've seen too many cause the guns to start misfiring as they started to wear. Of course, the wide higher mass target-type hammers don't require changing quite as often as the narrow M&P type hammers do.

It bears repeating that all the "timing" that a revolver does is before the hammer breaks. Bolt drop...Cylinder hand-up...Bolt engagement into the stop cut. These things will happen at their appointed places regardless of the spring's load and rate...no matter how fast or slow the cycle is.
 
I hope you don't take disagreement as an insult.

Some of these guys can't make the distinction.

If you mean toolmaker in the aircraft sense. I have made my living that way also.:)
 
We don't take disagreement as an insult. Civil disagreement is how we learn.

In this discussion, there seems to be more of a misunderstanding as to how a revolver functions....times...and what the springs in it actually do.

They have nothing to do with timing. Like the recoil spring in a 1911 has nothing to do with barrel unlock timing. Strong spring...weak spring...no matter. Timing is fixed and is only affected by wear or failure of the related parts.

I only got into this discussion to point out the difference between time and timing for the guys who are thinking of changing springs, and hesitate after reading your post about them having an effect on the timing of the revolver. They can't affect the timing. They can affect proper function...reliable ignition and hammer/trigger reset...but not timing.

If we're going to talk function, it's good to understand exactly what that function is.
 
You almost said I was right.

They can effect proper function, of which timing plays no part.?!
 
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Alright, "Timing plays a part in proper function." #64
(springs) "They can play a part in proper function #62
"Springs have nothing to do with the timing of a Smith&Wesson revolver. Nothing" #64
Have I finally got it? Cause it still sounds kind of circular to me.

OK I guess using 3 of your quotes in short sentence form, is not the simplest way.
 
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Ruger...I've tried to help ya understand how a revolver functuons, but...like my salty old pappy told me...Some folks ya just can't help.

But, for the sake of trying to further your education, I'll try to break it down.

The mainspring drives the hammer forward to fire the primer.

The rebound spring drives the rebound slide forward after the hammer falls, resetting the trigger and hammer.

That's it. That's all the springs are there for.

Timing begins when the trigger starts to move. The lock bolt is pushed into the frame by a cam so that the cylinder can turn. The pawl starts to rotate the cylinder, and the stop bolt is released...dragging lightly on the cylinder so that when the next slot presents itself, it can engage it under spring pressure. The timing of the stop bolt is the point that it drops and releases. The bolt springs only function is to keep the bolt in contact with the cylinder.

As the pawl hands the cylinder into position, the stop bolt locks the cylinder into battery.
The hammer reaches the break point on the double-action sear...and falls...driven by the mainspring.

If the revolver is properly timed, the cylinder locks into battery just before the hammer breaks. Colt revolver cylinders time just as the hammer breaks.

None of these timing functions have anything to do with the springs...because...timing is fixed and doesn't change except through wear or breakage. Heavy spring...light spring...fast spring...slow spring. Fast cycle...slow cycle. It won't affect the timing.
 
"Timing plays a part in proper function."
Click to expand...
Well of course, because if the revolver isn't timed properly, it isn't functioning properly, but springs do not affect timing, mechanics do.
(springs) "They can play a part in proper function
Click to expand...
Function yes, timing no. It obviously cannot function without springs.
"Springs have nothing to do with the timing of a Smith&Wesson revolver. Nothing"
Click to expand...
Correct.
 
Really WA still, 5 hours later?
Click to expand...
Happens to be the time I signed on again. I've been to work (on call), the range, then work again, then home. ;)

I shot some .44 Spl. Lots of fun. :)
 
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