smith and wesson lock

[Old Fuff]

While the lock is known to malfunction on rare occasions, there doesn't seem to be a particular reason - or if so it hasn't been identified. On at least one occasion a faulty spring was blamed, and S&W replaced it. Other times the effects of recoil forces have been thought to be the cause.

There was a time when occasionally a .38 Special revolver would be blown up when what was supposed to be an ultra-light charge of Bullseye powder apparently detonated. Efforts to duplicate this in a laboratory failed, so to this day it remains a matter of speculation as to "why".

In both cases there isn't any evidence that a single cause is or was always responsible for what happened on each and every occasion.

If all lock failures could be traced to a single cause, the matter could probably be addressed and corrected. But as it is, you can't solve the problem(s) when a single cause isn't known.

There is one solution however that is a sure thing. No revolver will ever be unintentionally disabled by a lock that isn't there.

No style of handgun is 100% reliable, and of the total number a certain percentage will for one reason or another become inoperable. However this percentage can be reduced somewhat by careful manufacture combined with comprehensive quality control and inspection – both sadly lacking today. Reliability can also be enhanced by not incorporating questionable and often unnecessary devices that can contribute toward the number of failures.

 

[Master Blaster]

Is it possible for the lock to engage without the "flag" popping up?

No its one solid piece of metal, the little nub that locks the hammer by engaging the slot in the hammer is the same piece of metal as the flag. Now if you have a 642, 442 etc with an internal hammer there is no little flag to pop up.

 

[Hawk]

No its one solid piece of metal, the little nub that locks the hammer by engaging the slot in the hammer is the same piece of metal as the flag. Now if you have a 642, 442 etc with an internal hammer there is no little flag to pop up.

Safe to assume then that a picture purported to illustrate a lock failure on an exposed hammer model with the flag "fully down" has actually gotten its panties in a bunch for a reason unrelated to the lock?

Don't see 'em often but they do show up occasionally.

...

No argument from me on unneeded stuff, Fuff.

However, I did rather despair of convincing S&W to revise the thing based on market forces when I saw how much they actually ship. 185,000 in '06 alone. It seems to me that if we've got 1000 posts from people stating they'll never own a lock it's actually 100 people repeating the resolution 10 times. The amount of market clout would seem to amount to piffle.

It'd be nice if they took a page from Colt's playbook and issued some "replicas" minus the thing. They already offer the forged parts and pinned sear on some higher-end models. I expect the price on a lockless (relatively) low production, forged part, pinned sear item will be higher than some would guess.

 

[Old Fuff]

However, I did rather despair of convincing S&W to revise the thing based on market forces when I saw how much they actually ship. 185,000 in '06 alone.

I don't think for one minute that my opinion, or that of others of a like mind, is going to cause S&W to eliminate the lock, although they might change the design. They are also not going to stop using EDM machines to cut the rifling in their barrels or abandon two-piece barrels with crush-fit threads, which in effect make barrel changes a factory-only job. I won't get into the issue of MIM lockwork, but do notice the hammer pictured above does have a sort of crude look to it, and the famous case-colors that once graced earlier revolvers are gone.

Without question any business I might give them is a small drop in a big bucket, and they won't miss it one bit.

However my very modest needs can be met by shopping the used market, and for an example of the selection that's available at the moment - from a single source yet, go to the following sites and look:

www.armchairgunshow.com

www.armsbid.com

 

[mec]

If you look inside that old 1905 Hand Ejector you'll find the way it's put together is a lot differenent then you what you see now. That one was built, today they're assembled...

Yep Indeed:

the avalance of horrors tends to make us forget all that's gone before. We didn't like it when they did away with pinned and recessed but we tended to forget that when they started mimming parts. Now MIM parts have receded into the background in the face of the LOCK and the erector set barrels and shrouds.

 

[Hawk]

Fuff, I'm glad you have those resources.

Regrettably, I've got no business buying stuff over the internet based on my previous luck. If someone were to sit down and design Hawk's personal hell, armsbid would probably be the result.

AS IS / WHERE IS - Generally, items in this auction are sold as is, where is, with no guarantee whatsoever, subject to the minor exceptions for absentee bidders listed in #5 below.

Nobody that manages to spend 2,500.00 on two Pythons to recover only 1,300.00 several weeks later after discovering they barked at the moon should be bidding on something with a "good luck with that" condition of sale. I've managed to lose more money, faster, with revolvers than I was able to ever do previously outside a casino or gentlemen's club. And, the memories from both the casino and gentlemen's club are more pleasant than those provided by the Pythons.

Although the timing-challenged P&R 57 worked out well, I'm pleased to report.

I suspect that the more often one takes it in the shorts on the used market the better the lock and other "features" on the newer product start to look.

The non-local used market is a great resource for those with the necessary background to avoid the minefields, or have Ron Jeremy's luck. But its size is diminishing and the luckless need not apply.

There's still the occasional local stroke of good fortune though - like the 6" 686 last week in the Lear Siegler box that shoots like a dream. It's only wart is the absence of the "M" on a "no-dash". I intend to run an experiment to see if I can learn first-hand why there was a recall. I'm disinclined to send it in as I'm afraid they'll "fix" it and it's just got too nice an action to risk.

 

[Old Fuff]

www.armchairgunshow.com and www.armsbid.com are both run by Jim Supica, who besides being a member of The High Road is a ranking authority on Smith & Wesson, and a co-author of Catalog of Smith & Wesson, which is the bible for those that wheel & deal in that company's guns.

In both cases the guns are carefully examined and honestly described in the catalog or on the websites. I have bought a number of guns through both of the websites and have yet to be disappointed. That which he offers seldom goes cheap, but what you expect to buy will be what you get - and sometimes it's better then what you expected.

I would rate him higher then a local dealer with minimal knowledge about classic handguns that simply takes one in, hangs a tag on the trigger guard, and then puts it in the used gun counter.

Run your eyeball up to the picture in Master Blaster's post that shows the inside milling of the frame, the lock and an MIM hammer. Then go to mec's post with the picture of the inside lockwork of a pre-war Military & Police .38. The much better workmanship will leap out at you! I'll take one like that any day of the week. Not getting a lock is just an additional bonus.

 

[Hawk]

I have no doubt that Supica is a superlative dealer.

But he's not Superman, and probably can't test fire every firearm that goes on the auction site and I've shown a spectacular (especially to me) ability to search out and buy dogs.

You've shared in some of my frustrations and also good fortune (nickel 5" 27s, wonderfully resurrected 57s, that sort of thing).

But I've not found the used market to be the field of sunshine and buttercups many make it out to be. Some Pythons suck. Some P&R Bangor Punta era 57s suck. A lot of stuff, I would guess, that didn't suck when it left the factory was made to suck by the owners previous to my showing up - like the Anaconda with the backwards and upside-down crane cup that you helped me with before.

Point being: someone buying a 2-piece barrel, MiM trigger, frame locked, slapped together wheel gun runs a 99.97% chance of the thing working first, last and always. A similar stunt on the used market has less than a 99.97% chance of working right - If I'm any indication it's closer to 70%.

If Supica shows up in this thread and says: "Hawk, that disclaimer doesn't apply to you - if you get a dog, you can return it" I'll happily eat my words.

But I think those disclaimers are put there because people like me exist.

Sometimes old stuff isn't better - it's just older.

For my sake, let's hope Jim Supica doesn't post to this thread - my finances are compromised enough without me suddenly thinking I can buy early model revolvers with impunity. I figure the chances of that are slim, though.

Just to make it interesting, I'll commit to a minimum of 5K in bids within the next 60 days if someone chimes in telling me I absolutely, positively won't take it in the shorts buying over the internet. I'll even promise to stay clear of bidding on Pythons as I've learned my expectations for "buttery smooth" don't coincide with Colt's fans ideas of the concept. PM or public, either way.

 

[Old Fuff]

Boy... are you a hard sell...

You must have been born under an unlikely star. Well we can compromise. I'll still take a chance on the older stuff, and you can play safe (maybe) with what's coming down the line.

 

[Hawk]

Dang!


Oh well, can't blame a guy for trying.
Special terms at armsbid would have been so nice.

I'm still managing to avoid the new stuff, but I suspect I remain more nervous through the process of buying used than I should. You did get me thinking about what I would do if I was buying for "real" social purposes. New with lock or old with a personal "hard luck" history. Tough decision. Probably Ruger.

Oddly enough my overall luck reflects standard laws of probability. The statistical clustering doesn't kick in until I'm buying used revolvers. Since I don't actually believe in luck either my revolver history will improve or it'll be indicative that the market actually consists of 30% baying dogs. Since the latter isn't plausible, I'm looking forward to a couple good buys to rearrange my expectations and attitude. For the time being though, they should likely remain local so I can do the checkout.

 

[Old Fuff]

Armsbid.com is an auction. Most of the guns are consigned for auction, which doesn't leave much wiggle-room, although I haven't been stung, and I know others that have all won guns through the auction and been well satisfied. The risk I would say, is much less then bidding on guns offered on other auctions such as gunbroker.com

Armchairgunshow.com is Jim's own sales site. Some of the pieces are on consignment, where others are his - bought as inventory to be sold, or sometimes part of his personal collection. If you spot something there you are interested in, send off an e-mail to see what guarantee he can offer. Not to worry, the gentleman doesn't bite, and I've found him to be as honest as they come, and he does want you to be satisfied. That said, he is selling vintage arms as collectors' items, not shooters - but collectors want their guns to be fully functional too, or have advanced notice when they aren't. Hopefully no one will consider post-World War Two guns as “vintage,” because if they do the Old Fuff is in trouble…

 

[sdkidaho]

Batmann said:
If you like what you see---get it.
My S&W with IL HAS NOT BEEN a problem. If you are concerened, take it out, 10-15 min deal.

Is it really this easy? Does anyone have a guide posted up somewhere that shows how to remove this?

shooter429 said:
You will still have crimp-jump and other issues to deal with though. To me, they jus aint worth it. Make mine steel, thank you very much.

What is crimp-jump?

I'd really like to buy the 329PD to have as a carry pistol while I'm out in the woods hunting. We're often in area's where there are black bear or even grizzly and so I'd like the .44 on me, but I'm not really interested in one that is going to fail in time of need. The Scandium is appealing because it is a lot less weight to carry around (obviously), but if weight is the difference between dead and not dead, well... I'll just suck it up and deal with the extra weight.

And Shooter429 - are you interested in selling that lightweight revolver?

 

[sdkidaho]

Posted by sdkidaho:
What is crimp-jump?

I found the answer to this question:
In brief, crimp creep occurs when a heavy load is fired from a relatively light gun. The recoil imparted to the weapon is great enough that the inertia of the other bullets in the cylinder causes them to advance out of the case slightly. This usually occurs only a few thousandths of an inch for a given firing, though I have seen bullets jump as much as .020″. Crimp creep can occur in any kind of firearm, but I personally have only observed it in revolvers.

Found in this article here: http://www.scopedin.com/wordpress/?page_id=21

Pretty good article about the 329PD and what loads to use. Looks like those Buffalo Bore 255 grain bullets are the way to go.

 

[veritas111]

Smith and Wesson revolver locks do jam up the gun.

I have a Smith and Wesson revolver with the new lock and it does cause the pistol to malfunction sometimes. I the gun is held loosely this can happen.
One of the advantages of a revolver is it's reliability and simplicity. You can remove the lock but you are leaving yourself open to a lawsuit if you do.
So the bottom line is that Smith and Wesson is once again covering their ass at the expense of their customers. They would rather that you the customer take a legal risk and possible a physical risk.

 

[mec]

It a win-win situation. S&W can make safety revolvers until the cows come in and we don't have to buy them.
Everybody's happy.

 

[Old Fuff]

It a win-win situation. S&W can make safety revolvers until the cows come in and we don't have to buy them.
Everybody's happy.

Now why didn't I think of that????

 

[..]

I just picked up a NIB 442, brought it home and promptly ground off the tab. Only a fool would bet his life on Smith's defective ILS.

 

[bg226]

There are several reports of locks engaging by the recoil of the weapon, requiring the key to unlock.

Selling products that satisfy those who would never ever purchase a gun is a very poor sales strategy.