Smith Carbine: Original Load Data?

[Panzerschwein]

Hello all! I am thinking about buying a Smith carbine replica from Pietta. I understand that Dixie Gun Works sells black plastic cases for these rifles that look similar to the originals, but they only hold about 35 grains of powder when topped with a .515" 360 grain bullet, firing the load at about 750 FPS. I remember reading that original Smith carbines used 50 grains of powder, and would fire the same bullet to about 950-1000 FPS.

I am wondering if anyone knows the true load data for original Smith carbine cartridges? If they really did use 50 grains of powder back then, why are today's cases limited to just 35 grains of powder? I'll have to admit that power drop is one reason that I'm hesitant of ordering a Pietta Smith carbine... I would want it to have the same ballistics as an original.

If any Smith carbine shooters are out there, please let me know if you have the answer. Thanks!

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

today we have liability issues. Thus the lower powder charges.
That and most moulds today are up in the 400 / 500 gr bullet weights.

Don't bother with the plastic cases, only good limited number of times.
Buy the brass ones, they will last almost forever and they too hold about 35 to 40 gr.

After firing a few times you may find you might have to open the flash hole in the cartridge just a bit. also lay a piece of tissue paper or rolling paper over the hole then the powder. Helps stop the minute dribble and helps keep air at bay.

Also on the square locking lug on top, you will find it helpful to take a small jewelers file and smooth the edges down a bit, makes easier opening.

For me it's a hoot to shoot

Original loads were around 50 gr with a 360 gr or so bullet.
My custom bullets are 397 gr on the scale
I believe my manual says 80gr bulk powder and fffg

 

[Panzerschwein]

Liability is the reason? That seems odd to me. Then why can a modern musket repro safely shoot 140 grains of black powder? I've heard the brass cases only hold about 25-30 grains of powder with the bullet properly seated (grease groves just below case mouth). The plastic ones hold a bit over 35 grains. This is with the original 360 grain bullets.

I wonder if 35 grains or so of a modern, hotter sporting powder like Swiss would produce velocities close to or matching the original 1000 FPS load. Would be interesting to see some chrono tests but I doubt any have been made.

 

[kBob]

John D. Mc Aulay in his "Carbines of the Civil War gives info on the original loads.

A paper and foil cartridge called a Poultney patent cartridge with a .525 bullet of 376 grains and a 40 grain charge & OAL of 1&3/4 inches.

If you happen to be an experienced cigar wrapper you might be able to sort of copy those. Hmm......there is a side line for some retiree that rolled cigars by hand as a youth down in Tampa......."original Poultney Patented Cartridges"

Wonder how the originals were made. Around a mandrel, I would guess to make diameter and length uniform

OR

A rubber cartridge using a 350 grain .50 bullet with 40 grain charge and OAL of 2 inches. Sounds a lot like the modern plastic, eh?

Thing that amazed me not just with the Smith but all the ACW breech loading carbines was the variety of bullet diameters all supposedly for the same calibers.

We today fret of a difference of 1/1000 of an inch and here is an example of the 1864 government knowingly buying bullets 25/1000 of an inch off on purpose!

There was no all metal cartridge case.

Don't let the barrel just drop down, control it and never let it fall on a finger or hand wrapped around the front of the trigger guard......ow!

ALWAYS use the release in the trigger guard to open the action and NEVER attempt to force the spring by prying it up.

-kBob

 

[Rebel Dave]

The Smith Carbine is not the strongest action. They will blow open, using heavy charges.
Pietta Smiths should be considered a "kit Gun", whereas you have to play with the cartridges, chamber size, and bore to get them to shoot good. the chamber sizes can be all over the map, some are to tight, some are to loose, some are OK. Early Piettas had bore problems, and many of them had to be relined. A loose chamber will make it very difficult to load the proper size bullet for your bore, and wont shoot worth a damn. tight chamber will make it difficult to load your cartridges in. A long chamber will affect accuracy, and a short chamber will make it hard to close. You can get a lot of info on the N-SSA forum, for smith carbines. Just be sure to say you want Pietta info, as originals are a different animal (much easier to set up, and shoot). Piettas will shoot also, but, its a crap shoot to buy one.

When I shot my original Smith in N-SSA competion, I used 35 grians of 3-F blk powder, and it would put them thru the same hole at 50, and 100 yrds. I used white nylon tubes, over, and over again. (They are no longer available). I dont think you need to hot load a smith.

If I was looking for a Smith Carbine, I would save my money, and find a decent original, they can be made to shoot very easily, and accurate.

Why would you want to shoot 140 grains in a Musket. Most standard loads were not over 70 grains of 2-F. When I hunted with a Thompson Center Hawken I only shot 55 grains of 2-F with a patched round ball, it was easy to shoot, and didn't knock your cheek off. I have an Garrett Arms Sharps Rifle, in 50-140-3 1/4, cal, and it is very uncomfortable to shoot with 140 grains of 2-F.

The N-SSA is having their Spring Nationals , now till May 23rd, so you will find it kind of slow on their site, till the Nats are over.

Rebel Dave

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

I've had my Smith 3 yrs now.
I shoot bulk now and then, 80 gr charges, never had a problem yet with action or the barrel locking mechanism.
Don't go by hearsay if you haven't owned and shot your own.
If you look at the owners manual of Uberti and Pietta BP revolvers you will see they recommend ridiculously low powder charges in all of their guns.
This is lawyer speak. They recommend what the lawyers tell them, to help
reduce liability law suits.
doesn't mean the gun can't handle a higher charge. But you're on your own if you do and it blows. But most of us routinely load 30 to 40 gr in our Pietta 1858's and Colts.

The plastic cartridges are good for about 10 to 20 reloads before they start showing signs of deterioration.
Whereas the brass last almost indefinitely.
And in the brass you don't seat the bullet to the grease grooves.
You only seat about 3/16 max.
The neck is overbored as compared to the powder area for seating depth.

The Smith is a break action like most .410 shotguns, and has a solid breech.
No problems with it failing so far in mine.
But like the Sharps, it can pass a bit of gas out the sides and top (mine never has). But with a case this is eliminated.
Even thought the cases hold less powder than bulk, because it is more tightly contained and is slightly compressed when seating the bullet the pressures are increased a bit giving more oomph.

 

[mec]

seated a bit deeper here's what one did:

Smith Carbine
Cartridge 360 grain .. 515" Bullet
(dixie product number ba0206
30 Grains Swiss FFFg

929 fps 690 ft lbs 27 fps spread



3.8" Seated resting over knees at 40 yards.
With 30 Grains Goex FFFg
846fps 572 ft lbs 49 fps spread 3.8 inch group

With 30Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P
799fps 510ft lbs 27 fps spread 3.0 inch group

 

[Panzerschwein]

seated a bit deeper here's what one did:

Smith Carbine
Cartridge 360 grain .. 515" Bullet
(dixie product number ba0206
30 Grains Swiss FFFg

929 fps 690 ft lbs 27 fps spread



3.8" Seated resting over knees at 40 yards.
With 30 Grains Goex FFFg
846fps 572 ft lbs 49 fps spread 3.8 inch group

With 30Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P
799fps 510ft lbs 27 fps spread 3.0 inch group

Wow, thank you for those numbers. It seems that if one were to use the Dixie Gun Works black plastic cases which hold 35 grains of powder with Swiss FFFg, velocities should be quite close if not spot on to the 950-1000 FPS of the originals loaded with 50 grains of FFg powder.

This gives me renewed hope. I was worried that it wouldn't be possible to replicate original ballistics with today's reduced capacity reproduction cases.