Smith & Wesson 39-2 Ex-Military or ?

[BlindJustice]

I'm negotiating with a guy who while in the
Army stationed in Germany circa 1978 got
a deal = bought a S&W 39 & 59 for $ 99 each.
both are NIB and the original box is metal

Here's where it gets interesting

The receiver is stamped like the M1911A1
with a 'Property of USA Gov' both of the
guns are in a gnsafe with his lawyer buddy who
has a big gun safe.

Was the 39/59 adopted my the Millitary perhaps a
small unit - this guy was 8 years US Army then
switched to a CIA Support base Interesting stories.

Trying to figure a fair offer

NIB 39-2 & Premium for the metal box/'property of'

Randall

 

[rcmodel]

That's all pretty strange.

There were no 'original metal' S&W boxes.
The 39-2 was introduced in 1971, and came in a blue cardboard box with metal reinforced corners, and a white label on the end with all the information on it.

The Model 59 came in the same type of box.

Neither were ever officially adopted by the military, although some were undoubtedly used by SF and MACV in Vietnam.

According to Standard Catalog of S&W, none of those guns carried any special military markings.

There was one hybrid version of the Model 39/59 equipped with a silencer, nicknamed the 'Hushpuppy' used by SF in Vietnam.

But too my knowledge none where marked U.S. Property by S&W, unless the Hushpuppy was? I don't know because I have never seen a real one.
But I would be very surprised if they were marked with anything at all.

In other words, sterile, so if found, they couldn't be traced back to the U.S. Special ops units using them where we weren't supposed to be.

I would guess the U.S. Property was added later by a unit armorer with a set of metal stamps.

And I don't believe they would command any premium price without more providence then you have.

'I got it from a guy who was CIA' isn't good enough.

PS: When you get a chance to see them, note if the U.S. property stamp has broken through the black anodized finish. That will prove beyond a doubt they were stamped after they left S&W.

rc

 

[Onmilo]

I'd offer $400 for the 39 and $450 for the 59
Sounds like PX Range loaner guns that were sold to serviceman as surplus.

 

[BlindJustice]

Thanks rcmodel

I agree on all points. & the 'tell' on the anodized frame

Saw a pic in SoF magazine years ago of a 1911 used by
SEALS in 'Nam - silenced with a separate slide lock - slide
cycled manually for quiet ops.

Randall

 

[RustyShackelford]

Smoke & mirrors ...

There seems to be a lot of "fishy" stories connected with these older S&W pistols.
The other post had a lot of great details. From what I gather, the USAF Security Police & OSI(Office of Special Investigations, the Air Force version of NCIS or CIDC) field tested a few S&W model 39s & 59s but chose to remain with regular medium frame .38spl DA revolvers & the old 1911a1 sidearms.

The CIA angle sounds weird .
Maybe the Company somehow obtained the old T&E Model 39-2s or 59s for use in training or to give agents in Warsaw Pact countries/East Berlin.

Rusty

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Maybe the Company somehow obtained the old T&E Model 39-2s or 59s for use in training or to give agents in Warsaw Pact countries/East Berlin.

If they were purchased to give to agents behind the Iron Curtain, I doubt they'd be marking them "property of USA Govt."

The way I've seen such markings in the past [and there may be a lot of other ways it's done that I haven't seen] was "property of US Government or ""UNITED STATES PROPERTY M 1911 A1 U.S.ARMY" , but not " Property of USA Govt" The "A" in the USA seems wrong. These markings may be legit, but they seen kind of strange to me.
'
Seems like someone has tried to CREATE a seemingly valuable relic -- but they don't seem authentic... A collector would want a lot more PROOF about the gun's history before he or she paid any knd of premium. I don't think you can say they're NIB... as they've certainly had several owners. ANIB or 100%-98% maybe. The metal case seem entirely unathentic and inappropriate for a govenrment owned or controlled weapon.

 

[BSA1]

Buy the gun, not the story.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Interesting.

First off, I seldom - if ever - say "never" when it comes to firearms considering all the one-offs, prototypes, test samples, custom shop offerings and the like that are out there.

So.

What do I have here in plain sight?

"UNITED STATES PROPERTY"
"U.S MILITARY PROPERTY USMC"
"U.S"
"PROPERTY US NAVY"
"US ARMY MODEL ****"

And probably others.
"Property of USA Govt" smacks of a "lost in translation" sort of thing but who knows?

Color me intrigued!

Are the boxes bright blued, parked...?
Could they be re-purposed squad cleaning kit boxes?

Hell, as I like both pistols and am intrigued by them, I'd likely buy them on "spec" and worry about provenance at a later date - if ever.

Books could be written about what's currently not commonly known regarding post-Korea weapons systems and the word "never" would be as tough as any other negative-proof to support. We had a great many firearms in various arms rooms in SF that aren't supposed to have existed... living in the never-world.


Todd.

 

[Fremmer]

+1 on BSA's post.
Are the mags hard to find now? Parts?

I don't know what a LN 39 is worth, but if you're not a collector, I'd start at around $500.
But that's just my guess, a lotta people on here are more knowledgable about the FMV of those pistols.

 

[Jim K]

That marking, "Property of USA gov" is IMHO spurious. The correct marking would be "United States Property", or just the letters "U.S.". In some cases of local purchase, there are have been other markings, such as "U.S. Navy", but I know of no instance in which the phrase "U.S.A. Gov" has been used on any government property of any kind.

Then the inclusion in the story of the "CIA" angle adds yet another area of suspicion on many levels. (All American spies carried guns marked as being U.S. property; saved trouble for the KGB in identifying the spy's country. )



Jim

 

[RustyShackelford]

Fingers & brain ....

Sometimes I get distracted when watching TV & reading forum posts.

My fingers work faster than my brain, .
I doubt any intel guys or secret squirrels packed S&W model 39-2s marked US government but I still think these surplus USAF pistols might have been used for training or marksmanship.

Rusty

 

[Redcoat3340]

If it were me, I'd check over on the Smith and Wesson board...those guys know EVERYTHING about those guns.

Here's the website: http://smith-wessonforum.com/

 

[Walt Sherrill]

My fingers work faster than my brain

I think it's a virus -- and you might've gotten it from reading some of my posts. Boy, have I been there and done THAT! - which was why I did the .

 

[Old Fuff]

For what it worth, I know of a case where an Air Force General requested, and was issued a S&W model 39 and shoulder holster, prior to an inspection trip to Viet Nam.

I have no idea if it was stamped "U.S. Property" or not, but it was unquestionably available.

Personally I wouldn't buy a model 39 with an alleged military background without first confirming its background with a S&W historical letter. It would be too easy to fake.

 

[BlindJustice]

I agree on ( if I did offer ) to just buy the gun and not the story.

And the historical letter from S&W.

The metal box(es) are intriguing

As far as Generals go, they can carry whatever they want examples
include George Patton .357 Revovler afaik. and General Mark Clark
carried a M1017 cut down to 4" in WWII & Korea.

R-

 

[Old Fuff]

I am well aware that Generals can carry anything they want, but usually the chosen non-standard handgun is privately purchased. The one I mentioned was issued - after a request.

 

[RustyShackelford]

US Army General Ricardo Sanchez, sidearms .....

The CiC of US forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom, US Army General Ricardo Sanchez used a strange brown leather US Army "tanker" rig for his M9 9mmNATO sidearm. It looked custom made.
As noted, AR670.1; the US Army regulations about uniforms & gear states that general officers: O7 & above, can wear any uniform, modify any uniform or carry any weapons-equipment they choose while on active duty.
Army generals get 01 M9 9mm sidearm and holster, belt, etc that they can later buy.

 

[MutinousDoug]

USAF General officers were issued Model 39 S&Ws at least in 1969 when my father was issued his. Dad passed in 2009 and my brother is in possession of the gun now. I have the issuing paperwork. The gun appears to be civilian type, blued with no Identifying US property marking other than miniature stars on the slide signifying his rank. It was issued with a black leather S&W holster and spare magazine carrier and the black general officer pistol belt that seems to have gone AWOL.

 

[Jim K]

A note on general officers' pistols. They are (AFAIK) the only firearms actually GIVEN to the recfipient by the government. In spite of the stores about all those M1 rifles Patton handed out like C ration candy and how your uncle got one or a dozen, a GI's issue weapon was and remained government property; it was issued to him for use on behalf of the government and could not legally be taken home.

But a General Officer's Pistol, if he chose to request one, was his to keep or do what he wanted with, and he got a paper saying so. Of course, he could also buy and carry what he wanted, as Patton did, but that is another matter.

Jim

 

[moxie]

Mutinous Doug is correct. Except that the miniature stars on the slide I don't think were issue. They were probably added by the General himself or his unit at some point.

At that time USAF general officers had their choice of S&W 39 or Browning HP, the S&W Model 15, or in some cases the M1911 custom chopped at the Lackland armory per AFOSI specs. Now, as far as I know, it's just the Beretta M9. When the general retires he/she can submit a request through the MAJCOM to HQ USAF at the Pentagon to purchase the gun at a ridiculously cheap price. I know because my office handled the requests.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

...In spite of the stores about all those M1 rifles Patton handed out like C ration candy and how your uncle got one or a dozen, a GI's issue weapon was and remained government property; it was issued to him for use on behalf of the government and could not legally be taken home.

When I was in the Air Force and spent some time in Alaska, you could get really nice arctic AF parkas from guys who worked in Supply for just a few well-placed $20 bills. (I know a bunch of guys who bought them and shipped them home.) I suspect some of those M1s were acquired in the same way.

I never had the GUTS to buy one of those parkas but always wished I had done so. Then about 20 years later, I found one in the my company's newly finished office building as we moved in from older quarters. I set it aside and waited for someone to come hunting it, but he never did. (It was Winter, cold, and the building was poorly heated -- and we were on the first floor right over a big parking area. It was cold!) I figured one of the constuction works took it off while working, and simply forgot it.)

I used the parka from time to time for a couple of years, and eventually outgrew it -- waist-size, not height. I think they used real wolf fur around the front of the hoods of some of those old arctic parkas... (The parkas worked well at -30 f, which I encountered in Anchorage, but were a bit toasty for where I later lived: in the Piedmont of NC.)

 

[RustyShackelford]

True WWII US Navy story ....

My mom lived for about 6 years in the house of a nice, older couple in Charlottesville VA in the early 1990s. The guy who owned the property was a US Navy veteran & officer stationed in Norfolk VA during & before WWII.
He knew I was in the Army and liked guns. He shared a story of how he purchased a brand-new, unfired Colt 1911a1 .45acp with 2 GI type magazines from a fellow Navy officer who realized he couldn't bring his own firearms on-board a big ship leaving port.
The officer was in a rush & the guy got a great deal.
He told me he kept the single action 1911a1 pistol for about 50 years.

 

[MIL-DOT]

..... without more providence then you have...

Sorry bro, I just couldn't help it .

PROVENANCE
See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
Syllabification: prov·e·nance
Pronunciation: /ˈprävənəns/ 

Definition of provenance in English:
noun
1-The place of origin or earliest known history of something: ‘an orange rug of Iranian provenance’

 

[Jim K]

The term "provenance" originally mean the origin or source of an object. Today, it is often used to mean the whole history of an object, specifically a record of ownership from its manufacture to the present. By showing the history of, say, a painting, a seller can prove that it has always been accounted for and is unlikely to be a forgery.

Jim

 

[MIL-DOT]

Yeah, thanks Jim, I obviously already know that. I was pointing out the use of the completely wrong word: Providence.