Smith & Wesson quality

[skidder]

You may gain durability with better alloys (if it's true), but poor craftsmanship cancels any boast of superior metals (perfume on a pig... it is still a pig).

I had the money for a new 66 in my local gun store. The Hillary Hole, poor finish, and sloppy cylinder sent me to the pawn shop where I purchased a Llama 38 special and a nice Security Six .357 for a grand total of $380. I gained 2 handguns and still had $200 in my wallet by passing up the so called "Smith and Wesson".

 

[Kiln]

One of my very favorite revolvers is a RG model 66 9 1/2 in barrel 22lr, I guess I got the 1 of a thousand. I also have 3 more RG's all are as good as any Taururs as I've traded off. No Taurus' but 4 RG'S what the hell.

I've got two Rohm revolvers that work fine but have also had two with problems...quality on them is hit or miss and you either get a good one or a bad one. Both of mine are RG model 23 revolvers. No they aren't pretty but they're still ticking fine and I shoot them frequently too.

I wouldn't buy an RG10 or RG14 because those ones were pretty problematic...later models are muuuuch better.

Edit: The two that I had break on me were an RG10 and an RG66 but the 66 was heavily used by two owners.

 

[eazyrider]

I am a young guy but I like revolvers better than auto's. There are not a lot of choices when it comes to wheel guns at the gun stores. Usually just three or four makers. I have seen no quality issues from any of them. Of course that is just holding them, not shooting them heavily. Personally I am a Colt fan so that sentence in Chuckhawks blog about S@W ripping off Colt for a 150 years made me smile. But in all seriousness I would have no problem buying or trusting a Smith. In fact my next handgun will probably be a 7 or 8 shot .357 made by S@W.

 

[Old Fuff]

I also don't believe that S&W uses better alloys today than they did in the 1950's

The high-carbon steel that S&W used during the 1950's is pretty well gone, because it's been replaced by stainless. Better of the same has replaced the early stainless alloys. Where big improvement can be seen is in the aluminum used in lightweight frames. During the 1950’s no one in the business even remotely considered making an aluminum/steel lightweight snubby chambered in .357 Magnum. They can and do today, but I for one don’t have the slightest interest in getting one.

I am not a stainless steel fan, and I’ll point out to those that are, that the military services of the world have not gone in that direction. Since military small arms often have to stand up to harsh environments and see more “wear through use” then privately owned guns that’s an interesting observation when you are discussing materials.

Tastes change, but in my view the improvements in materials haven’t been enough to affect the kind of revolvers I’m interested in, to justify going to automated workmanship, all other things being equal. There is a limit to how many small/lightweight snubbies one needs to own. After that I fail to see where material advancements in revolvers really matter.

 

[oldfool]

used to be there were four big in DA revolvers
Colt, S&W, Dan Wesson, and Ruger
(other than the usual assortment of high priced small volume niche 'custom' makers, and the usual bunch of cheap Saturday nite special class players)
H&R and High Standard were pretty much sideline 2nd tier makers. Taurus was pretty much unheard of outside of South America.

Colt isn't Colt anymore
S&W isn't S&W any more
Dan Wesson isn't Dan Wesson anymore
and Bill Ruger doesn't run Ruger anymore

Holding Companies run the big firearms companies, not individuals, and they all have a lot of MBAs and accountants stacked up like cord wood, falling over one another to save on unit costs and get their little gold star next to their name. How it is.

Now only three are "big" in revolvers - S&W, Ruger, and Taurus, and the respective players market to their chosen price points, and they all keep a real close eye on one another. When it's all said and done, all the excuses made, all the peevishness vented, all the political postured, it's really not a huge mystery.

Averaged across the brand lines, you don't always get what you pay for, but very very rarely get what you don't pay for. The price lines are what they are, because of the methods used and the time and attention spent on quality control (or not spent). No mystery as to how the big three shake out on pricing. If you really think you are getting a free ride from anybody on quality, fit, finish, accuracy, trigger, reliability... well buy more of that "Winchester branded" accessory stuff from Wallyworld and be happy.

Somebody above already pointed out what yesteryear prices translate into today, so get over it, $100 or $1000 cash just ain't what it used to be.

No, you won't get 1950 hand fitted quality out-of-the box from S&W.. or Ruger.. or Taurus. There is no Tooth Fairy. But cough up enough cash for custom work, you can get anything. I would suggest you start with a S&W or Ruger to customize, vs. Taurus, but it's your money.

Me, I own S&W, Ruger, Taurus, Rossi, High-Standard, Colt, Beretta, AMT, and INA handguns
(and would own more brands if had more money)
all of 'em made more than a couple of decades ago, except a couple of Ruger autoloaders, MKIII and LCP

The opinion of any one person (me, you, anybody) is extremely subjective, and oft driven by yesteryear loyalties, woobie factor. But my opinion is that I would not hesitate to buy a newly manufactured revolver today, leastways if I had more hands to shoot them with. I would look real close at any make/model, but I have no doubts about 'who' I still expect to offer the most models in better vs worse quality. Those price tags are what they are because all three are making their sales targets by selling them at that, each has a proven profit model that works. That just doesn't work on 'name' alone, never did.

I don't buy that Wallyworld/'Winchester' crap because of what it ain't, irrespective of name; some do I guess. But I also don't do custom guns, so when looking for best investment for my bang, mostly inclined to start at the top (S&W) and only work my way down. Mostly, not exclusively.

 

[oldfool]

If you want to get ol' Chuck cranked, just tell him S&W was the 1st in the game with 357 mag revolvers.. not those dadgum Colt copycatters

ol' Chuck writes a good article, but he ought stick to writing about Browning rifles...
and that article is so old it has longer whiskers on it than me

 

[Guillermo]

the improperly named Old Fool wrote a fine post in #55

Good job you old whisky drinker

 

[bsms]

If the amount of work done by hand is the measure of a gun, then S&W and Ruger are in the toilet. If shooting well is the standard, they are doing fine.

Jack O'Conner used to complain that the pre-64 Winchester wasn't being made, and about the poor checkering and lousy wood used on guns in the 70s compared to guns made before WW2. But he also had the sense to admit that the new guns worked fine for taking game.

I'm now 3 for 3 in getting good guns from S&W, ordered blind over the Internet. And I've yet to see where someone had a gun that shot poorly, where either S&W or Ruger failed to make it right. Oh golly - worst case, you may lose the use of your gun for 2 weeks while the manufacturer carefully fixes whatever was wrong.

Are the guns less reliable now? Nope. The opposite. K-frames are limited to 38 specials, and L-frames can handle 357 loads without damage. So can J-frames...

And N-frames have been tweaked to help with issues encountered BY THOSE OLDER GUNS WHEN NEW.

And if you really want a S&W with the finish of the old guns, and with ultimate triggers, you can take your $800 guns, send it to a custom gunsmith, and for what - $500 or less - get back a beautifully finished gun with a hand stoned trigger. Total cost would be $1300 for a gun with the fit and finish of a 1950 S&W.

And no one is stopping you from doing so. And honestly, no one is stopping you from haunting auctions and going thru a hundred pawn shops and gun shops to find your dream gun. If that is what you value, do so and enjoy it!

But why gripe that the news guns are dog poop? After a nearly 25 year break in shooting, I came back and found a gun world where guns are much easier to find and frankly shoot much better than the ones I bought in the late 70s. I've had my 22/32 kit gun for 35 years, and no, it doesn't perform any better than the Model 29 that I picked up a couple of days ago.

I remember the good old days. They were not that good. Hard to find guns, ammo was whatever the local store carried, guns were no better in quality in 1976 than now and maybe less, it took me 6 months and hundreds of miles of driving to find a different grip for my Dan Wesson, concealed carry was a wet dream for many...

I remember 1976. If you like shooting, 2011 is much better.

 

[hardluk1]

I have a buddy that bought a model 629 for hunting. This thang spit powder and shaveings like a chipper and cylinder gap was right at 10th's. TSW go it back and returned it to him all fixed up, gap was still 10th's but did not shave any more> it still had a real side blast out of it. he sold it and bought a ruger srh . Some of sw revolver shooter do know that the quality of fit was better some years back. Today when sw CS will tell you the production cylinder gap can be from 6 to 10ths on production revolvers and cutom shop will run 4 to 7ths . The custom shop guns fit was what the run of the mill was form years gone by. And those early mid frame 357's sure are some beautifull handguns just don't feed it a steady diet of magnum rounds. Glad I own old dan wessons.

I do own one S&W. A M&P15 sport. Guess i will see how that goes.

 

[bsms]

When I was buying guns in the late 70s & early 80s, cylinder gap was pretty variable too. I saw from 0.002 (way too small) to 0.01 on my guns, and I didn't own that many...

 

[18DAI]

I have it on good authority that the original S&W Performance Center - in its own facility seperate from the main factory - is no more.

I'm informed the "performance center" is now simply an additional assembly line in the main plant.

This would explain the lousy triggers and other flaws on the so called "performance center" pistols that I've examined.

My K-comp, L-comp, PC full lug 4" 14-6, and PC13 are superb revolvers well worth the price tag. Evidently the current company calling itself S&W is unable to do high end guns correctly anymore. Sad.

I continue to hold out hope that with their stock continuing to tank, they will be bought out by a gun company.

 

[bsms]

Hmmm...

"For the quarter ending July 31, 2011, Smith & Wesson net product and services sales were up 18% ($14 million) to $91.7 million as compared to the same quarter the previous year...

...Under the operating expenses section of the report, S&W decreased overall administrative and marketing expenses by more than $1.1 million, and increased research and development by almost 50% to nearly $1.6 million."

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2011/09/08/smith-wesson-quarterly-report-offers-insights/

Revolver fans need to remember that revolver sales probably don't drive profitability. It seems the sales of Walther pistols is hurting them. My guess is that no one in any boardroom is sitting around saying, "If we could buy S&W's revolver line, and increase costs with a lot of hand tuning, we could really make a profit!" :banghead: It is a business, folks.

 

[Guillermo]

It is a business

Yes...but reputation matters.

I watched a guy rip out the tile in a bathroom and start over because his helper had messed up.

He is smart enough to know that leaving the job as it was would hurt him in the future.

It appears that S&W does not understand that high quality creates return customers.

Of course maybe they figure the revolver is on its way out...why bother trying to build a decent product?

Of course the addlepated still delude themselves and belly up to the bar, Ushers Green Label at Glenmorangie Portwood prices.

But this is an untenable position.

 

[bsms]

Do you know what they call a business that demands perfection while charging mass production prices?

Bankrupt.

High end revolvers sold to people who examine the finish under bright lights is a very small part of S&W's business. If every revolver customer demanded it, they would drop that part of the business rather than go under.

 

[Guillermo]

perfection

they are SOOO far from perfection that I don't think they are capable. Certainly that is NOT what we are talking about.

The idiots can't get the barrels on straight.

S&W is Taurus quality (at BEST) at 50% more money.

Of course as long as the sheeple waddle up to the bar and order Blatz and pay microbrew price...why should they change?

 

[jackpinesavages]

No. Simple.


The "plague" is one guy who is at his time of the month as his testosterone production is now outpaced by estrogen production of old age, needs a Mansier bra for his sagging chest, and feels the need to bleet out to the interwebs world about his Customer Service problems rather than dealing maturely with CS in an adult fashion.

All too many folks today seem to believe in the "I" and "me", rather than the "we can fix this together" mentality. So your pistol won't ...*&^%#" and the guy that answered the 800 # in CS didn't want to deal with you. Research it yourself, take the pistol apart, call a friend in the gun club, do a Google search on the pistol ( Desert Eagle + drug dealers + gun value). Call CS back on another day.

Smith and Wesson rocks. Buy American when you can. Thank You.

 

[skidder]

Oldfool-- Is correct, but we don't want these young punks figuring it out. One of the reasons there is still a substantial market of old guns is due to the sales of the new. Keep your wisdom to yourself because I'm going to be pissed if this younger generation starts spending their paychecks on my guns. I know the truth and so do many others, but let them keep selling their inherited "fossils".

"You don't want that old thing". "Hey! Look at that one, it shoots 45's and 410s".

 

[bshepherd]

I love my numerous Smith & Wesson revolvers and Semis.

Chuckles does not know what he is talking about. He is way too full of himself.

 

[Guillermo]

The "plague" is one guy who is at his time of the month as his testosterone production is now outpaced by estrogen production of old age, needs a Mansier bra for his sagging chest, and feels the need to bleet out to the interwebs world about his Customer Service problems rather than dealing maturely with CS in an adult fashion.

That is funny stuff!!!