Baron Holbach
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What smokeless cowboy loads -- as distinguished by bullet type and caliber -- could meet the needs of CCW or home defense, in single-action revolvers?
Smokeless cowboy loads for CCW and home defense in single-action revolvers
- Thread starter Baron Holbach
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J Miller
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(I am most familiar with the .45 Colt, so I'll address this caliber.)
From 30 years of owning and using and loading the .45Colt .........
....NONE.
You would be better off using any of the various JHP, or SWC loads available on the market today.
I have never found a Cowboy load that was accurate in any of the .45 Colt revolvers or rifles I have shot it out of. I realize that home defence ranges are short, but I believe that accuracy is a necessary ingrediant in a good defence load. Granted I haven't shot them all, but I have tried a bunch.
These loads may have a flat point on the bullet but the velocity is so low that it can't take advantage of this.
The cowboy action loads barely make the old .44 Special 246gr RNL velocity. Many people, myself included feel that this is not a good defense round.
There are much better rounds on the market for self defence. Corbon, Winchester, Remington, Federal, all make better SD rounds. Plus if you are a reloader you can assemble some full weight 255 SWC loads at factory velocity (850 fPs) that are much better than cas loads.
JMNSHO & YMMV
MrAcheson
Member
I'd have to agree with J Miller. "Cowboy" loads for single actions are way too anemic for self defense or home defense. If your guns can take it (not a BP gun with a conversion cylinder), then shoot a modern SD round in the gun. Just be sure your guns can take the pressure of the modern rounds, so don't shoot Ruger Only loads in a non-Ruger revolver or instance.
Baron Holbach
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Thank you, JMiller and MrAcheson, for your response to my question about cowboy loads and whether they could meet the needs of CCW or home defense in a single-action revolver. I understand that in cowboy shooting competition, bullet velocity cannot exceed 1,000fps for handgun caliber cartridges. If you take a 250 grain .45LC cartridge with a flat nose hard cast lead bullet and load it to 900 or 950 fps, would this not be comparable to the hardball .45ACP ammo used in a full-size 1911, whose one-shot stopping power has been rated around 63 percent? I agree there are anemic cowboy loads. But is 900 or 950 fps anemic?
griz
Member
A heavy flatnose at 950 FPS would certainly be at least in the 45 hardball class, but most cowboy ammo is loaded to the low end, closer to 700 FPS. I wouldn't want to be shot with one, but I'll second the advice of sticking with those new fangled JHPs.
Jim Watson
Member
No, a 250 grain bullet at 900 fps is not anemic.
The thing is, commercial Cowboy ammunition is not distinguished by bullet type and caliber. "Cowboy" has become a designation for ammunition which is not loaded to the MAXIMUM; it is loaded to the MINIMUM to reduce recoil. At one time there was a minimum velocity of 650 fps, but even that requirement did not last long. "Cowboy" velocity is low, bullet weight is usually lighter than standard.
The standard loading of .45 Colt, a 255 at 850 or thereabouts will serve as well now as it did then.
The thing is, commercial Cowboy ammunition is not distinguished by bullet type and caliber. "Cowboy" has become a designation for ammunition which is not loaded to the MAXIMUM; it is loaded to the MINIMUM to reduce recoil. At one time there was a minimum velocity of 650 fps, but even that requirement did not last long. "Cowboy" velocity is low, bullet weight is usually lighter than standard.
The standard loading of .45 Colt, a 255 at 850 or thereabouts will serve as well now as it did then.
Jim March
Member
There's a whole slew of "defense 45LCs" out there involving JHPs of 200 - 235grain moving at 850 - 1,000fps. While some are a bit warm, none are of the "Ruger-ONLY +P" type and can be fired in any 45LC gun *except* the break-tops!
The Winchester Silvertip 225grain is the easiest to find. Cor-Bon's 200grainer is probably the fastest (1,100ish I think?) and Proload took the route of using a regular 45ACP 230grain Speer Gold Dot projectile made for 45ACPs and loaded it in 45LC cases at around 850fps.
Unless you're restricted from carrying JHPs, why not use any of these?
The Winchester Silvertip 225grain is the easiest to find. Cor-Bon's 200grainer is probably the fastest (1,100ish I think?) and Proload took the route of using a regular 45ACP 230grain Speer Gold Dot projectile made for 45ACPs and loaded it in 45LC cases at around 850fps.
Unless you're restricted from carrying JHPs, why not use any of these?
MrAcheson
Member
Exactly, most "cowboy" loads are raw lead that is loaded at low pressures to reduce recoil. Some of it may very well be inaccurate since most pistol targets at a cowboy match are around 5-7 yards out (I believe) so there isn't much demand for accuracy. There are much better products available for defense.
sixgun_symphony
member
You would be much better off using original BP loadings than to use the anemic CAS target loads.
Jim March
Member
I don't know if I'd trust a 260 JHP at that speed. 850 is real marginal for a JHP to expand, you need a pretty decent cavity and the heavier the slug is, the harder it is to put a good enough cavity size on it.
Now, maybe they got it right, I dunno. But at those speeds, I'd put more trust in a "flying ashtray" of some sort. Nobody else is loading a defensive JHP 260 at those speeds or any other that I'm aware of, so there's no "track record".
Proload decided they had a 45ACP recipe sorted out, so they just straight cloned that. That makes sense. The Winchester Silvertip has been a known quantity for a long time. Cool. Ditto the Cor-Bon.
Call me conservative, but JHPs can fail to expand for up to three different reasons: too slow, too fast, or they clog. Go with what you KNOW works because if the excrement impacts the rotary air movement device, that extra little bit of confidence you get out of using "known quantity" ammo and a good gun can translate right to your facial expression and body language...and raises your odds a Goblin will run and you won't have to shoot at all. (Not the only factors of course, training is the MOST important...but "gear trust" matters too.)
Now, maybe they got it right, I dunno. But at those speeds, I'd put more trust in a "flying ashtray" of some sort. Nobody else is loading a defensive JHP 260 at those speeds or any other that I'm aware of, so there's no "track record".
Proload decided they had a 45ACP recipe sorted out, so they just straight cloned that. That makes sense. The Winchester Silvertip has been a known quantity for a long time. Cool. Ditto the Cor-Bon.
Call me conservative, but JHPs can fail to expand for up to three different reasons: too slow, too fast, or they clog. Go with what you KNOW works because if the excrement impacts the rotary air movement device, that extra little bit of confidence you get out of using "known quantity" ammo and a good gun can translate right to your facial expression and body language...and raises your odds a Goblin will run and you won't have to shoot at all. (Not the only factors of course, training is the MOST important...but "gear trust" matters too.)
sixgun_symphony
member
People got alot of faith in those light hollowpoints. IF they expand then it will make for a larger wound channel.
Me, I like heavy cast bullets that will penetrate through muscle, sinew, and break bones.
Me, I like heavy cast bullets that will penetrate through muscle, sinew, and break bones.
Jim March
Member
sixgun_symphony: Define "light"? Compared to what?
The cops using .40S&Ws are getting good results with 155/180grain stuff, the 45ACP with 230s has been kickin' butt for years, but suddenly a 200 - 230grain 45LC is "light"?
There's no bone in the human body that will be "smashed" with 255grain lead ball yet will *NOT* be similarly trashed with a 200-230grain JHP if they're both doing 850 - 900fps. The difference will be that the 255 lead round nose will be flying out the guy's back at 600+ fps, while the "light" JHP expanded and did a WIDE swatch of destruction and either barely cleared the guy's back at 50fps, or stopped just inside the skin on the far side.
If we're talkin' bear defense or hunting boar/deer or some other need for an insanely deep punch, right, that's a different story.
But in terms of personal defense loads, we've come a long way since Wyatt Earp's day.
The cops using .40S&Ws are getting good results with 155/180grain stuff, the 45ACP with 230s has been kickin' butt for years, but suddenly a 200 - 230grain 45LC is "light"?
There's no bone in the human body that will be "smashed" with 255grain lead ball yet will *NOT* be similarly trashed with a 200-230grain JHP if they're both doing 850 - 900fps. The difference will be that the 255 lead round nose will be flying out the guy's back at 600+ fps, while the "light" JHP expanded and did a WIDE swatch of destruction and either barely cleared the guy's back at 50fps, or stopped just inside the skin on the far side.
If we're talkin' bear defense or hunting boar/deer or some other need for an insanely deep punch, right, that's a different story.
But in terms of personal defense loads, we've come a long way since Wyatt Earp's day.
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Ultramax Cowboy loads are still pretty stout in the 44 mag/special variety, thats a 240 gr flat point at 750 fps.. equivalent to a 45 acp wadcutter, only its soft lead.
Interestingly, thier 32-20 load is a 115 gr lfp doing 1050 fps.. that's getting into 9mm territory with a lead bullet.
Be warned however MOST 38 special and 357"cowboy" loads have the exact same ballistics (there is no advantage to buying the 357) in the 158 gr weight.
To be SASS legal, most handgun loads MUST BE below 1000fps, but still a mid-range 44 say at 900 fps would still be in the 45acp harball range, only with a lead bullet.
Interestingly, thier 32-20 load is a 115 gr lfp doing 1050 fps.. that's getting into 9mm territory with a lead bullet.
Be warned however MOST 38 special and 357"cowboy" loads have the exact same ballistics (there is no advantage to buying the 357) in the 158 gr weight.
To be SASS legal, most handgun loads MUST BE below 1000fps, but still a mid-range 44 say at 900 fps would still be in the 45acp harball range, only with a lead bullet.
sixgun_symphony
member
Though they still launch a heavy lead bullet, the CAS target loads have some very light powder loads. The gamers especially will handload some very light "mousefart" loads.
How about the original load consisting of a case full of FFFG and a 255gr cast bullet as the starting point? We can then go on to higher velocities with smokeless powder.
Hollowpoints are usually lighter than the cast bullets and they only work if the open up on impact. I would rather have a keith style bullet and just punch through bone.
The smaller bores have greater sectional density than do the larger bores of the same weight. A 158gr is a heavy bullet for .38 Special, but would be very light for a .45 chambering. It's the sectional density of a projective that helps penetration.
Jim March
Member
If the 230-or-so grain JHP fails to expand, is that any worse a situation than if you'd just started with a Keith?
More importantly, do you really think current 45ACP JHP rounds of 200 - 235 grains are experiencing inadequate penetration in human targets, expanded or otherwise?
The answer to both questions is a resounding "NO".
By picking a Keith-type of any weight, all you're doing is ensuring an "expansion failure" and reduced wound channel, plus ensuring that even with a good hit on target, you're going to throw a round still moving at lethal velocies in an unpredictable direction because you don't know in what direction a bone hit might send the round. Which at 500 - 600fps is still lethal.
In any urban or even suburban environment, such an ammo choice in my opinion borders on criminal recklessness. It also guarantees less stopping power than what the caliber can deliver.
More importantly, do you really think current 45ACP JHP rounds of 200 - 235 grains are experiencing inadequate penetration in human targets, expanded or otherwise?
The answer to both questions is a resounding "NO".
By picking a Keith-type of any weight, all you're doing is ensuring an "expansion failure" and reduced wound channel, plus ensuring that even with a good hit on target, you're going to throw a round still moving at lethal velocies in an unpredictable direction because you don't know in what direction a bone hit might send the round. Which at 500 - 600fps is still lethal.
In any urban or even suburban environment, such an ammo choice in my opinion borders on criminal recklessness. It also guarantees less stopping power than what the caliber can deliver.
sixgun_symphony
member
At 850 to 900fps, the heavier 250gr bullet will have better sectional density for penetration through muscle, sinew, and bone.
Mainly I want it to break through bone, as in having the option to shatter the pelvic hip/socket area as well as disconnecting the vertebrae.
We all read stories of thugs high on adreneline and dope that are shot in the heart but keep going until they literally drop dead. I figure that busting up the pelvic area will drop anybody and leave 'em laying on the floor to bleed out.
Jim March
Member
We agree as to the value of the pelvis shot.
From a frontal shot, the pelvic bone isn't underneath that much meat. A 230JHP will break it (or shatter the hip joint, depends on where you hit) just fine.
From a frontal shot, the pelvic bone isn't underneath that much meat. A 230JHP will break it (or shatter the hip joint, depends on where you hit) just fine.
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