Smokeless in BP a gun?

[Boom-stick]

Smokeless powder in a BP gun?

I'm new to this forum and being from the UK, muzzle loaders are one of the few ways we can shoot handguns so I've a question regarding the use of nitro powders in muzzle loaders.
I know it says don't do it, but I've resently aquired a Casuall .22 Mini-revolver which states in the manual you can use 2.5grs BP or pyrodex or 1gr bullseye? Has anyone else come across such things or tried use reduced smokeless loads in Muzzle loaders?

 

[Jim Watson]

If Casull says you can use nitro, use nitro.
I would not put smokeless in the usual run of Eyetalian copies of Colts and Remingtons, nor even a Ruger Old Army. They are not designed for it, they are not proofed for it. Even the very strong Ruger is said to be subject to rapid erosion of the nipples if shot with smokeless.

Alan Westlake will convert them to handle smokeless powder within your repressive laws.
http://www.westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html
Or make them from scratch:
http://www.westlakeengineering.com/4640/4667.html

Can you get the various fake powders there? Hodgdon 777 is very easy to use.

Actually (ectualy?) black powder is not as hard to work with as it is often thought. I routinely shoot my Winchester Single Shot .38-55 with black powder and cleanup is faster than with smokeless, if a little dirtier.

 

[Boom-stick]

I know Alan and his work (very expensive but worth it!!) the indoor range I currently shoot on isn't geared up for use with black-powder, although it is having work done to allow the use of 777. The nitro conversions cost as much if not more than the original firearm which is very painful on your wallet.
I keep asking if it possible to get a BP gun (eg. Old Army) reproofed for smokeless but no-one will answer me. The Old Army should be strong enough as it's design brief was that it gets proofed by filling the chambers full of bullseye and firing (quite a harsh test!!!).

 

[Third_Rail]

There is a single shot muzzleloader rifle here in USA that is made for smokeless powder, FWIW.

 

[mec]

"I keep asking if it possible to get a BP gun (eg. Old Army) reproofed for smokeless but no-one will answer "

I've heard rumors that the Old Army is proofed with Smokeless but haven't check that one out. Somebody in France, i believe worked up a caplock revolver to shoot .38 wadcutters over smokeless powder. The accuracy results I saw were not very impressive.

 

[Boom-stick]

"There is a single shot muzzleloader rifle here in USA that is made for smokeless powder"
I think I've seen it, is it made by savage?
Rifles aren't really my thing though, prefer handguns, due to being righthanded and left-eyed

Alan Westlake, here in the UK makes cylinder conversions to fire wadcutters over smokeless but they are expensive.
And if I was tempted to part with that kind of money I'd get one of these http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_ClementsFugett.htm

 

[Jim Watson]

Ruger Old Army is a strong gun but I really doubt it is proofed with a chamber full of Bullseye. That will wreck a Super Blackhawk breechloader of similar size and material.

I guess you could be the first on your block to try it. A little Bullseye in an Old Army might work. A string to the trigger to begin would be desirable. I don't know where that would leave you versus the proofhouse.

 

[Boom-stick]

I was only going on what I had read. I think it was only the prototype anyway. Check it out.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_50/ai_112128015

 

[Jim Watson]

I guess if John Taffin says so, it is so.

Note that a .45 ACP target load is 3.5 grains Bullseye.
Somebody has to be first.

 

[Boom-stick]

I'll probably just stick to my little .22 casull with 1 grn of bullseye and wait for the range to be approved for use with 777 then get myself an old army.

 

[unspellable]

List of potential problems with smokeless in a cap lock

1. Smokeless is generally more difficult to ignite than black powder or BP substitutes. With a cap on nipple you are likely to have misfires. You would need a regular primer or shotgun primer. The tiny little 22 probably gets away with this because the chambers arer so small, and I'd bet it has short nipples. You will note that Savage's smokeless front stuffer does NOT use caps.

2. Caps do not seal off the nipple very well. If you get above BP pressures there wil lbe a tendency to spit and/or blow the cap off, possibly jamming the action. Again the answer would be regular or shotgun primers.

3. There is nothing to give any indication of pressure so you would be working up a load while blindfolded so to speak.

4. A smokeless load requires the bullet to be seated to a ceratin depth rather than on the powder as with black. How do you get consistent seating depth?

5. A lot of BP arms are not very strong to begin with. Yes, the barrel walls on my single shot cap and ball pistol are much thicker than on my 44 Mag Mountain Gun. But it is made of low grade steel, not primo stuff.

6. Proof. The proof pressures for black powder arms are not very high. You have to understand that proof firing is not too test the design, the design has already been proven. The proof firing is meant to detect any hidden flaws in the particular speciman to hand. You do not know if there is a hidden flaw that will stand up to the proof pressure but might let go before you reach the design pressure.

Bottom line is you are walking around in a mine field if you atttempt smokeless loads in a cap and ball piece. If you feel obligated to try it, get an old tire to mount the gun on, a barrier to hide behind, and a loooong piece of string. And remember, just because it didn't come ungl;ued this time doesn't mean it won't come unglued next time.

 

[unspellable]

List of potential problems with smokeless in a cap lock

1. Smokeless is generally more difficult to ignite than black powder or BP substitutes. With a cap on nipple you are likely to have misfires. You would need a regular primer or shotgun primer. The tiny little 22 probably gets away with this because the chambers are so small, and I'd bet it has short nipples. You will note that Savage's smokeless front stuffer does NOT use caps.

2. Caps do not seal off the nipple very well. If you get above BP pressures there wil lbe a tendency to spit and/or blow the cap off, possibly jamming the action. Again the answer would be regular or shotgun primers.

3. There is nothing to give any indication of pressure so you would be working up a load while blindfolded so to speak.

4. A smokeless load requires the bullet to be seated to a certain depth rather than on the powder as with black. How do you get consistent seating depth?

5. A lot of BP arms are not very strong to begin with. Yes, the barrel walls on my single shot cap and ball pistol are much thicker than on my 44 Mag Mountain Gun. But it is made of low grade steel, not primo stuff.

6. Proof. The proof pressures for black powder arms are not very high. You have to understand that proof firing is not too test the design, the design has already been proven. The proof firing is meant to detect any hidden flaws in the particular speciman to hand. You do not know if there is a hidden flaw that will stand up to the proof pressure but might let go before you reach the design pressure.

Bottom line is you are walking around in a mine field if you atttempt smokeless loads in a cap and ball piece. If you feel obligated to try it, get an old tire to mount the gun on, a barrier to hide behind, and a loooong piece of string. And remember, just because it didn't come ungl;ued this time doesn't mean it won't come unglued next time.

 

[Boom-stick]

thanks for the list, looks like I'll be giving it a miss then.
I have come across a few problems but they are not to do with using smokeless powders, the main one is that the CCI and remington caps I use have to be struck twice alot of the time before they ignite?
The hammer spring is very strong and the transfer pin isn't fouled up in any way, I was thinking about backing off the nipple by half a turn to bring it closer to the tranfer pin, is this a good idea?

 

[unspellable]

misfires

Assuming the hammer is delivering a good whack, having to hit the cap twice is usually a sign of a misfitted cap. (Cap is a bit too small.)

The first thing I would do is make sure everything is clean, properly lubed, and working correctly. The second thing would be to try different brands or sizes of cap. Unfortunately, there is a lack of standards for nipple and cap sizes. The next thing would be to try a different nipple.

That said, I did once have a revolver that misfired because the main spring was a bit weak.

I would be rather leery of turning the nipple out half a thread. If you are forced to this as a last resort be sure to have a very heavy grease in the nipple threads because you will be compromsing the nipple to cylinder seal.