Smokeless powder in a muzzle loader - how to destroy some nice rifles

[ClickClickD'oh]

...far too dim-witted to comprehend the vital basics of what all competent reloaders have readily understood for decades and decades.

Funny... to me that describes people who keep trying to use smokeless powder in BP guns.... Too dim-witted to comprehend what has been understood for decades and decades.

Or as was told to me as a child, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"

And no, black powder companies aren't failing to tell owners what they should put in their guns. Let's look at a CVA manual:

Page 7: • Blackpowder or an approved blackpowder substitute - NEVER use any amount of modern smokeless powder in any muzzleloader.

Page 8: PROPELLANTS NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, USE ANY AMOUNT OF MODERN SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY MUZZLELOADING RIFLE! The use of smokeless powder in your muzzleloader will create dangerously high pressures upon ignition which will likely lead to severe injury or death to the shooter and bystanders. The use of smokeless powder will immediately void the warranty.

Page 9: Do not use saboted bullets weighing over 300 grains in your CVA rifle.

Page 9: Do not use lead conical bullets weighing over 400 grains in your CVA rifle.

Page 9: CVA recommends a minimum of 50 grains, by volume, of blackpowder or blackpowder substitute in your .45 or .50 caliber gun. The maximum load in CVA breakaction guns is 150 grains by volume.

Honestly, the fact this discussion is happening at all smacks to high heavens of people who know just enough to think they know what is going on... then end up maimed.

 

[PapaG]

Sounds just like Randy, shotgun expert. He is knowledgeable but can be quite off putting and woe be it to whoever challenges his wisdom.
That said, he is correct and I'll add to the pile by saying that I believe, personally, that the dumbest thing ever done in the ml field was to make and advertise muzzleloaders for smokeless. What the ,"average" new shooter knows about powder can be put in a thimble. I even read where a well known gun writer (now on the outs) recommended Trail Boss for a percussion revolver. TB is smokeless AND not low pressure.

 

[Snidely70431]

I went to Hodgedon's Load data center and looked up .45 Colt load data for Trail Boss. I can see the gun writer's point, but a person using it would have to be very precise with the loads. A grain of powder weight makes a huge difference in pressure.

Bullet Weight 180 GR. CAST LRNFP
Manufacturer Hodgdon
Powder Trail Boss
Bullet Diameter .452"
C.O.L. 1.540"
Starting Load
Grains 6.0
Velocity (ft/s) 818
Pressure 9,400 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains 7.3
Velocity (ft/s) 935
Pressure 12,700 PSI

Bullet Weight 200 GR. CAST LRNFP
Manufacturer Hodgdon
Powder Trail Boss
Bullet Diameter .452"
C.O.L. 1.600"
Starting Load
Grains 5.5
Velocity (ft/s) 706
Pressure 8,000 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains 6.5
Velocity (ft/s) 855
Pressure 11,000 PSI

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Here is another of these 'scared straight' never use smokeless in a muzzleloader videos:



It is from CVA, and they use 120 grains of HS-6, a pistol powder. I looked up some load data on HS-6, and 120 grains is a HUGE overload.

In 7mm Rem. Mag with a 160 grain bullet you might be able to get 85 grains of HS-6 in a compressed load. Any guesses at the resulting pressure?
Just saying these videos prove nothing other than the fact that no firearm is idiot proof.

 

[Snidely70431]

In 7mm Rem. Mag with a 160 grain bullet you might be able to get 85 grains of HS-6 in a compressed load. Any guesses at the resulting pressure?
Just saying these videos prove nothing other than the fact that no firearm is idiot proof.

As to the pressures an 85 grain load of HS-6 behind a 160 grain bullet in a 7mm Rem. Mag. would generate, I shudder to think. Enough that I am not going to set it off!

 

[ThomasT]

NewAll I know is that it made me sick watching those rifles blown apart like that.
What a waste.

Yep. Cleatus and Cooter at their very best.

Those CVA guns were stronger than I suspected them to be. Just shows when treated with respect and loaded properly they are very safe guns to shoot and own. Too bad CVA doesn't still sell the traditional rifles and pistols anymore. I have zero interest in inline ML guns.

 

[rsrocket1]

I wonder how many people try to load a 30-06 with 120 grains of smokeless powder? I know you can blow up an AK-47 by removing the the powder in a 7.62x39 case and replacing it with a full load of Bullseye. The US soldiers did that to the VC.

It's a moot point, but I doubt anyone has tried working up a load with smokeless shotgun powder starting at 10 grains up to 20 grains and see how that shot in a muzzleloading gun. With a fiber wad and a patched roundball, the crush zone would be comparable to what's in a shotshell and the resistance would be much less than a jacketed bullet engraving the lands of a rifle. Chances are it would not blow up the gun and it would probably give decent velocities. The peak pressures would be on the order of 10,000 psi. Of course there is no need to do this but if I won the Lottery and had big property with a tree to tie the gun to and a long string out in the middle of nowhere, it would be a fun experiment

 

[Snidely70431]

I wonder how many people try to load a 30-06 with 120 grains of smokeless powder? I know you can blow up an AK-47 by removing the the powder in a 7.62x39 case and replacing it with a full load of Bullseye. The US soldiers did that to the VC.

It's a moot point, but I doubt anyone has tried working up a load with smokeless shotgun powder starting at 10 grains up to 20 grains and see how that shot in a muzzleloading gun. With a fiber wad and a patched roundball, the crush zone would be comparable to what's in a shotshell and the resistance would be much less than a jacketed bullet engraving the lands of a rifle. Chances are it would not blow up the gun and it would probably give decent velocities. The peak pressures would be on the order of 10,000 psi. Of course there is no need to do this but if I won the Lottery and had big property with a tree to tie the gun to and a long string out in the middle of nowhere, it would be a fun experiment

Years ago I used to handload 45-70 Government with (as I remember) 13 grains of Unique behind a 500 grain projectile for use in an old trapdoor Springfield.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?285579-45-70-load-with-unique

 

[ThomasT]

A 14gr load of Unique behind a 405gr bullet is sort of a standard for 45-70 loads in cowboy action shooting. But loading that in a brass case is not the same as loading smokeless powder in an open ignition system like a sidelock BP rifle. All those two in the video proved is that if you are exceedingly stupid you can ruin a perfectly good gun and get injured in the bargain. I doubt there are any real BP rifle shooters who would ever have loaded a rifle like those two did. I suspect even a complete novice would never have poured so much powder in the barrel that they could only ram the ball within 3" of the muzzle.

As for now traditional BP rifle shooting is just for us few hangers on like those reading here. But a couple of decades ago BP rifles were getting a lot of attention with early and late MZL seasons for hunting. I always had hoped that someone would have developed a BP rifle powder that didn't smoke. That didn't corrode and need to be cleaned after shooting. But could still be bulk loaded and not need to be weighed on a scale. That wasn't an explosive like real BP but similar to Pyrodex in properties. I am guessing that it will never happen now.

 

[Mizar]

Well, it did happen a while ago - one of the first nitrocellulose smokeless powders, introduced at the end of the 19th century, was the so called "bulk smokeless powder" intended for loading shotgun shells. It was the real black powder substitute - one would load it with it's black powder measures, by volume, as it was not so dense. I believe that Dupont produced it up to the 60's. But this powder was not intended for muzzle loaders, or cartridges - only shotguns.

 

[Jim Watson]

Anecdote alert: My boss had a neat little Whitney boxlock single barrel caplock shotgun.
Unfortunately, in his younger years, he had loaded it by breaking down a .410 shell, dumping in the powder, wadding with paper, adding the shot. The small, slow burning, .410 load "only" blew out the nipple and slung the hammer off the gun. He said he had kept the loose bits in a tobacco sack tied to the trigger guard, but it had gotten lost. Pity, it was otherwise in good shape and repairing the hammer and replacing the nipple would have been a worthwhile fix.

Good thing he only had a .410 shell to work with, a 12 would have left less of the gun, and maybe of him.

 

[ThomasT]

Well, it did happen a while ago - one of the first nitrocellulose smokeless powders, introduced at the end of the 19th century, was the so called "bulk smokeless powder" intended for loading shotgun shells. It was the real black powder substitute - one would load it with it's black powder measures, by volume, as it was not so dense. I believe that Dupont produced it up to the 60's. But this powder was not intended for muzzle loaders, or cartridges - only shotguns.

I have read about that powder. Just shows that it could be done. I don't like the smoke, the smell or the corrosion. I would be all over a smokeless bulk powder. I have heard there is one smokeless powder some have loaded loose in BP rifles and it was safe to do. But I won't tell what it is for fear someone may try it and get hurt. I am sure not going to try it.

 

[Mizar]

It can be done, this is out of question - after all, Britons have been doing "nitro" conversions of cap & ball revolvers for years. But you know, part of the charm of shooting muzzle loading guns is exactly the things you don't like - that big cloud of smoke, the loud BOOM, the smell. Oh, that gorgeous smell - nothing smells better than gunpowder, I tell you that... It's like why I smoke a pipe, instead of cigarettes - in the end, it's just a nicotine delivery system, but there is so much more involved in pipe smoking than simply lighting up and proceed to fill your nicotine hunger. It's a hobby, just like shooting muzzle loading guns. You either appreciate all the extra work required as part of the fun, or you just switch to smokeless cartridge loading firearms for less hustle.

 

[ThomasT]

I like the loading of the loose powder. I like the big boom. I don't like that the salts can corrode the gun if not properly cleaned. And rest assured my guns are properly cleaned and have never had a speck or rust in them.

And that nicotine hunger. I don't have it. Never did. I grew up in a house with others who did. It killed my dad. I was there at the hospital the night he suffocated because his lungs were so full of corruption he couldn't breath and his heart failed. He was 69 when he died. My father in law died the same way. He did quit smoking after his right lung collapsed and he spent the next several years hooked to a oxygen generator as he gasped his way through what limited life he lived. He was 68. My mother has COPD and only 50% lung capacity. That along with chronic heart failure all from smoking.

I really don't think smoking and shooting BP guns is a good comparison.

We are getting off track. This thread was about yahoos blowing up guns to prove a point most already knew.

 

[Snidely70431]

What is a real "Black Powder Substitute"?


By Randy Wakeman
http://www.chuckhawks.com/real_blackpowder_substitute.htm

 

[Kaeto]

Years ago one of those Survivalist magazines had an article on using a muzzle loader as a survival gun. In it it had a scenario where you were running low on ammo and in an abandoned house you find a stash of cased hunting ammo. it had you melting the lead out of the pulled projectiles, and had a chart of how much to reduce the smokeless load to match the pressures of the BP load. This was before the coming of the inline muzzleloader(yuck).

 

[PapaG]

Well, it did happen a while ago - one of the first nitrocellulose smokeless powders, introduced at the end of the 19th century, was the so called "bulk smokeless powder" intended for loading shotgun shells. It was the real black powder substitute - one would load it with it's black powder measures, by volume, as it was not so dense. I believe that Dupont produced it up to the 60's. But this powder was not intended for muzzle loaders, or cartridges - only shotguns.

I used this as priming powder in the bottom of the case under black powder main charge in black powder cartridge matches just like kids e the scheutzen boys did in 1900.

 

[ThomasT]

Snidely I read the article you posted. He was promoting Blackhorn 209 powder. It looks like it is intended for inlines. And at $37 for a 10oz bottle and $270 for a 5 pound jug I think I will pass. And he did mention that smokeless powder I referred to in post #37.

 

[Snidely70431]

Snidely I read the article you posted. He was promoting Blackhorn 209 powder. It looks like it is intended for inlines. And at $37 for a 10oz bottle and $270 for a 5 pound jug I think I will pass. And he did mention that smokeless powder I referred to in post #37.

Re post #37, that is why I posted the article.

I keep reading good things about Blackhorn 209, but have not tried it. I have most of a 1 lb can of Triple 7, and most of a 1 lb can of Pyrodex, so I am unlikely to be buying much of anything any time soon.

 

[ayetter2003]

Smokeless in a muzzleloader is bad idea period no exceptions.

The 2 rifles that were blown up for demonstration were made by Traditions no loss.

 

[Snidely70431]

Smokeless in a muzzleloader is bad idea period no exceptions.

The 2 rifles that were blown up for demonstration were made by Traditions no loss.

Not that you are opinionated or anything. Both of your statements are stated as absolutes. I would guess that others hold different opinions.