So What? (Last Shot Bolt Hold-Open)

[Dionysusigma]

Numerous times I've seen this, or rather a lack thereof, listed as a downside for a gun. I've even heard it used as an excuse to pass over an entire series.
My question is, why? Everywhere other than the US, long guns are designed without this feature in mind. Yeah, autoloading pistols do it, and that's fine, but why insist that rifles do it too? Before the M1 Garand, people didn't seem to care. Even revolvers don't have the cylinder fall out after all rounds have been fired. All I can see it be useful for is a minor convenience, right down there with loaded chamber indicators and bayonet lugs.

So is it because it's a somewhat uniquely American thing? Or am I missing something here?

"It doesn't have a last shot hold-open."

So what?

 

[DMK]

Why? Because getting a click when you really, really need a bang can make the difference between walking home at the end of the day, or going home in a body bag.

Before the M1 Garand, people didn't seem to care.

Before the Garand, people didn't have hi capacity semi-automatics. With a semi-auto, reloading from closed bolt is quite a bit clumsier and slower than reloading with the bolt locked back.

This feature is also most important with hi-cap magazines. It's hard to keep track of "did I shoot 29 or 30?...do I feel lucky?"

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I kind of miss it on my 10/22 but don't seemed to mind its absence on the Kalashnikov. It can be useful, but I don't consider it a big deal with or without one.

 

[nyresq]

the loudest sound in a gun fight is "click"....

 

[natedog]

Its not enought for me to condemn an entire series, but it is a downside, and a decided disadvantage. Why not have it?

 

[Jim Watson]

What do you mean "Before the M1 Garand, people didn't seem to care?"
My '03 Springfield stops open when empty, as do a lot of Mausers.

 

[mustanger98]

I happen to like that last shot hold-open.

I've notice my K98k has it too. Beats wondering whether shot four or five when the adrenaline's on and you didn't count how many times you racked the bolt.

 

[Moonclip]

Yugo AK mags lock back the bolt when empty,however it jumps forward when mag is removed. So someone in Jugoslavia must have thought the hold open was desireable either for cleaning or more likely for combat.

One way I have heard this being overcome is loading a few tracers toward the end of a mag so you know you are low. You can also put one or two tracers at the top of a mag so the enemy does not get wise to this.

 

[artherd]

Semi-essential feature IMO.

The different feel alone lets you know you are OUT.

And it speeds the reloads a good deal as well.

 

[hachik]

Definitely not only American, I'm glad Saive incorporated it into the FAL almost 60 years ago. Not necessary either, but better with than without.

 

[BruceB]

The hold-open is absolutely essential, in my opinion.

The weapon SOUNDS different and FEELS different to the shooter when it doesn't close due to the empty magazine, and I, at least, don't need to look at the gun to see its status.

The most-elegant hold-open device I've seen is on the Bren LMG. It fires from the open bolt, meaning that the action is open until the trigger is pulled, at which point the entire piston group slams forward to pick up and fire the round. When the magazine is empty, the mag follower becomes the hold-open feature. When the empty magazine is removed, the piston group moves forward just a fraction of an inch, to be retained by the sear. Add a loaded magazine, and pull trigger. That's it! With a two-man crew, the pause in firing is only a second or two. For a gunner working by himself, it's still only perhaps three or four seconds. Excellent system.

All the tracer comments, both here and in the nearby tracer thread, are related to IN-house shooting. The recent example from New Orleans should give us all reason to think BEYOND the house, and I believe has established a legitimate need (or likelihood) for a defensive shooter to be able to reach out to at least short rifle distances. In that case, I heartily endorse the use of tracers for some purposes, especially the almost-empty magazine notification. I usually load two tracers near the bottom of my 20-round mags, with two more ball rounds to finish-up the contents. I'm using 7.62 NATO, and the 7.62 trace is MUCH more visible than the 5.56mm tracer. I also keep a magazine of armor-piercing ammo handy, as it is far more likely to penetrate such things as vehicles and other hard cover.

 

[boofus]

Maybe they were all meant to be reloaded before they hit empty?

Or maybe those Euros just don't know how to make em.
The H&K SL8 bolt hold-open would cause the receiver to crack.

 

[ID_shooting]

To people with alot of AR time get used to the sound and feel:

bang, shunk, bang, shunk, bang, shunk, bang, shunk...

get a bang with no shunk, youre empty.

 

[rbernie]

Everywhere other than the US, long guns are designed without this feature in mind.

I think this premise is flawed. Many commercial and miltary semi-auto rifles designed around the world in the last 60 years have a BHO feature.

As far as I can tell, it's less of a US thing and more of an AK thing. Those countries and individuals who choose to field an AK-derived rifle/carbine don't get a BHO (regardless of whether they value it or not) and those who field something else most times get a BHO (regardless of whether they value it or not).

 

[Ian]

My '03 Springfield stops open when empty, as do a lot of Mausers.

Arisakas do as well.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Does anybody else find it ironic that you have AR fans complaining about AKs going "click" instead of bang?

There I said it...

 

[CombatArmsUSAF]

ID Shooting- "Shunk" Is that a technical term?

 

[iamkris]

Everywhere other than the US, long guns are designed without this feature in mind.

Everywhere other than the US, governments are designed without individual citizen's freedoms in mind...

[mom's voice] Just 'cause everyone is doing it don't make it right [/mom's voice]

 

[rockstar.esq]

This is a good thread

My opinion is that this issue is similar to the now ended (at least for many) debate of revolver vs. semiauto. I believe that having things made easier through technology is a good thing that should be embraced. Sure you could go to a teller and do your banking only during their hours, or you could use an ATM. You don't really "need" one until you've tried it and discovered that with less stuff to mess with, you can perform better. I for one absolutely hate dryfiring (almost as much as the brake cleaner = gun cleaner thing). I'd rather have a mechanism other than counting be on my side to prevent that from happening. Frankly, I think the fact that 10-22's don't come with one is simply stupid. I've heard about their famed ultra tough firing pins, but on a rifle with diminutive controls a little help goes a long way. I'm still a little confounded as to why nobody makes hi cap magazines for .22's other than those for the 10-22. One point that nobody has made is that the semiauto pistol can be reasonably expected to go into battery if a fresh mag is inserted and the slide is racked. In other words, despite the vast array of semiauto's an unfamiliar shooter can get the firearm to work without any special knowledge. This too would apply for rifles if only there was some kind of consistency. Europeans confuse me with thier love of heel clip magazines and "non drop free" mechanisms. It's almost as thought they relish the wasted time and effort involved in doing things differently.

 

[ID_shooting]

The is a highly technical term used exclusively by US Army Armorers. You AF guys might not understand. It can be found in the same book as "smidge" "yonder" "budge" "tight enough" and "C-hair"

 

[MTMilitiaman]

ROFL!!

 

[cosmonick]

The main reason that I like the "last shot hold-open" device is that I don't have to wonder wether or not my rifle is empty. That "click" could mean any number of things, not just an empty chamber. Even if the "last shot hold-open" device fails, you are no worse off than a rifle that didn't have one to begin with.

Mo

 

[TimboKhan]

Rockstar, Rockstar, Rockstar,

That extra second that a heelclip magazine takes may eat up a disproportionate amount of your life, but lets consider the facts here..

1. I rule.

2. You do not.

That should effectively end your argument as no one can go against that logic. Seriously, a heelclip style magazine is not the best way to go in a combat gun, but for a MkII, like mine, which I know you hate because you don't love America, its better, and here is why. First off, you have positive retention of the magazine using a system that is less prone to malfunction than a release button. Second, you do not risk dropping the magazine by hitting the release button, which is new pistols means you can't fire the chambered round. Now, are either of these two scenarios likely? Probably not, but they are possible, and this is why heelclip magazines in certain applications are not only preferable but better. As for the lockback feature, you have shot my 10/22, and you know how many round have been put through it. I know your hatred of dry-firing, but the fact is that gun has been dry fired at least as much as any 3 of my other guns have been fired. For me, I just don't care enough to change it, as it is a system that obviously works.

End Communication.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I know it's annoying at the rifle range to "open your action" on a rifle that doesn't have that feature in some form.

Even my Marlin 995 has a bolt hold open (it doesn't always lock back when it's empty, but you can lock it open for the RO)

The impromptu AK bolt hold open device? A used plastic 12 ga shotgun shell.

 

[Bart Noir]

Bolt hold open deivce is absolutely required.

At least on a military autoloading rifle. Especially in close combat, where the enemy WILL shoot you in the time it takes to realize your bang-stick is just a stick, and do a reload.

I notice nobody griped about the HK-91 (aka G-3) design. No such feature and IMHO that is its worst failing.

Now, with the open-bolt designs, mostly MG's (like that BREN) and most submachine guns, I guess the shooter just has to realize that it isn't banging and bucking anymore. Some will have the bolt go forward on an empty chamber, won't they?

Bart Noir