So why's the safety on the wrong side?

[rockstar.esq]

A couple of weeks ago I posted with a question about why nearly all modern bolt actions are cock on open which was answered handily. Apparently the sear on cock on close actions is huge and not conducive to nice trigger pulls.

My follow up question here is why on a right handed action is the safety traditionally on the same side as the bolt?

If a right handed shooter wanted to operate the safety, the right thumb is on the opposite side of the action. Even with the Mauser / Model 70 shroud, the safety rotates primarily on the bolt side. A cursory inspection of left hand bolt actions shows the layout is essentially the same. What really cracks me up is that the bolt release mechanism is located exactly where the safety should go! It seems odd to me that semi auto's, single shots, and doubles NEVER have the safety on the wrong side.

So I have to believe that there's a reason that this is done. So please THR's enlighten me!

 

[zinj]

They like to mess with our minds.

 

[Acera]

rockstar, I can't offer explanations to all of your life's mysteries, but I have an opinion on one. Take a look at a lot of long range shooters as they hold their rifles, a lot don't wrap their thumb around the top of the stock, but leave it placed on the same side as their trigger finger. John Plaster in his excellent book The Ultimate Sniper promotes this technique on page 179. "Make a practice of holding your thumb along the stock to avoid shifting the rifle" If you make this a practice, you end up with control of the safety with out shifting position. Thus having the safety in the correct position for this type of shooting. (let me know and I will post the entire three paragraph section on proper grip from page 178, if that is ok with the other members and not considered stealing from John P, a man I don't want po'd with me )

As far as the semi-auto's a lot of those have a pistol type grip, and intended for the thumb to be on the side of the safety. I haven't looked at a BAR lately, but doesn't it have the safety on the trigger guard, intended for a finger and not the thumb?

My double barrel guns typically have the safety in the middle of the receiver, on the tang, but I am a Beretta fan, and that is not true of all brands.


Just my opinion, I could be wrong. (In which case we should hear about it real soon, lol)
.

 

[MinnMooney]

All of my semi-autos have trig-guard safetys on the right side. My lever, and most bolts have right-side safetys. the only guns that are different are my 12ga side-by-side and Savage bolts that have the safety where it really is easy to get at............ that's on top, in the center, right behind the action.

 

[Rexster]

Wrapping the thumb around a rifle stock is a habit that will sooner or later result in a fat lip or bloody nose, when recoil drives the base knuckle of the thumb into the shooter's face. Point the thumb toward the target, either flat on the top of the tang, or better, along the side. Edited to add: Disregard that for a vertical-grip weapon, of course.

 

[Kharn]

Rexster hit it on the nose, you only wrap your thumb around a heavy-hitting rifle's bolt once. The teethmarks in your thumb will tell you that you're doing it wrong.

Kharn

 

[Z_Infidel]

As Rexter suggested, with a bolt gun I normally keep the thumb of my shooting hand on the right side of the tang pointing forward instead of wrapping it around. I believe Jeff Cooper also advocated that method.

 

[Alagator]

Thats why I love the tang safeties on my old Ruger M77s and my new Steyr SBS Prohunters.

 

[rockstar.esq]

Thank you all for your replies!

The point about holding the thumb on the right side is well taken however it doesn't bode well for thumbhole stocks. Although I haven't read any of Mr. Plasters work, Jeff Cooper's book, The Art of the Rifle does indeed advocate the thumb being on the right side. I thought it had more to do with quicker bolt cycling than anything else. Although heavy recoil does merit consideration.

The trigger guard safeties mentioned earlier aren't difficult to operate, in fact they are typically set up to allow a quiet off safe with the trigger finger. I just figured that there was some mechanical reason for this practice because it's so consistent between brands.

 

[Ash]

Of course, Savage has the tang safety. In addition, the excellent Mossberg 800's and 810 have the safety in the centerline. Though on the bolt and not on the tang, the location is the same.

Ash

 

[BigG]

That thumb on same side goes back to 03 Springfield whose short stock made the thump hit you in the nose. It's not necessary today unless you fire old military rifles.

 

[DMK]

My follow up question here is why on a right handed action is the safety traditionally on the same side as the bolt?

What guns are you talking about?

I can't see how that would be traditional just looking at the bolt actions I own:

Romanian 1969 - Safety on rear of bolt

BRNO #1 - Safety on rear of bolt

Mauser K98 - Safety on rear of bolt

Mauser VZ24 - Safety on rear of bolt

Springfield 1903 - Safety on rear of bolt

Swiss K31 - Safety on rear of bolt

Mosin Nagant - Safety on rear of bolt

SMLE and LE Enfields - Safety on left side of receiver (only workable with thumb over the top).

On the semi autos:

M1 Garand - Safety on trigger guard (right at forefinger)

M1 carbine - Safety on trigger guard (right at forefinger)

SKS - Safety on trigger guard (at rear. Don't know what they were thinking, but is is workable by the forefinger)

Marlin 60 - Safety on trigger guard (right at forefinger)

FAL - Safety on left side of receiver (right at thumb)

AR15 - Safety on left side of receiver (right at thumb)

My AK is the only gun I own that has the safety on the right side (same side as charging, or bolt handle. Bad ergonomics really as most people seem to agree today. The Israeli's even made a poor attempt to fix it on the Galil)

 

[rockstar.esq]

DMK, I see what you're getting at however the Mauser and the Springfield safeties swing to the right to fire, this is the same on model 70's as well.

The semiauto family tends to have easier manual of arms i.e. more similar to a pistol than any other. The single/ double shot rifles tend to have sort of a shotgun manual of arms which isn't awkward.

My question really pertained to modern manufactured bolt action design. But your post brings up a very valid point, if the military is typically at the forefront of any rifle design, why then do commercial bolt actions compromise a legitimate advantage?

 

[jefnvk]

The point about holding the thumb on the right side is well taken however it doesn't bode well for thumbhole stocks.

However, thumbhole rifle stocks seem to be a new thing.

I never wrap my thumb around unless shooting a .22. Yes, my nose has been sore quite a few times.

 

[rockstar.esq]

jefnvk, All the more reason for some innovation. I see the new S&W AND the new TC Icon have their safeties in the "traditional" place. Neither of them are chambered in African class cartridges so the nose whacking bit doesn't really apply. Again, it seems like an odd thing for the industry to standardize.

 

[Mauserguy]

"That thumb on same side goes back to 03 Springfield whose short stock made the thump hit you in the nose. It's not necessary today unless you fire old military rifles."

My dad taught me to always keep your thumb on the right-hand side of the stock, citing his drill instructors in the Navy, in the early 1940s. He said if you wrapped it around the stock you would break your nose. There is truth in what you say.
Mauserguy

 

[jefnvk]

Oh, I completely agree. Was just observing that the thumbhole stocks are a newer thing, and a lot of times they go on guns that have been around for years. The company isn't going to redesign and retool to change the location on a gun that they have been making for years.

However, if there is a new gun that comes out designed with a thumbhole stock, I see no reason to not take that into account, and to design the gun IAW that consideration. While not a bolt gun, if people did something like the AR safety, I think it would work halfway well.

 

[BigG]

"That thumb on same side goes back to 03 Springfield whose short stock made the thump hit you in the nose. It's not necessary today unless you fire old military rifles."

My dad taught me to always keep your thumb on the right-hand side of the stock, citing his drill instructors in the Navy, in the early 1940s. He said if you wrapped it around the stock you would break your nose. There is truth in what you say.
Mauserguy

Hi - my personal experience shooting heavy caliber rifles taught me a different way: I keep my shoulder and neck in the same relationship so the my head recedes at the same rate as my shoulder. I can fire the heavier stuff without getting a whack and also keep my thumb wrapped around the small of the stock like seems natural to me.

The guys who get whacked are typically stock crawlers or they let their shoulder go back with the recoil without their head. I let my shoulder and my head go back together. Makes for faster follow up, too.

 

[BigG]

Consider the Source

If you will remember, an 03 Springfield and a Krag, for that matter, has a straight grip stock like an old kentucky long rifle. The short length of pull and different way you grip the gun means you will get the thumb in the nose. That won't happen with a sporter stock with pistol grip.


The old Kentucky long rifle will cause you discomfort when that hooked brass buttplate recoils into your tender flesh, also.