some might find the following of interest, some won't

[alan]

JohnBT wrote:

My momma would still smack me today if I dared to wear a hat indoors.

Meanwhile, what's the big deal about this national i.d. stuff? The North won the War Between the States and states' rights bit the dust. Are y'all saying the South was right?


****
Your Momma sounds like a fine lady.

The only type of hats that I have ever worn were as follows:

1. Hard Hats, an employment related requirment. I don't wear them any more, being retired.
2. A Yarmulka, worn by male jews whilst in a synagouge, where I haven't been since I cannot remember when.

As to the rest of it, I do not believe that anyone said anything about the North or the South, or whichever of the two were "right".

As to your inquiry regarding "what's the big deal about this national i.d. stuff", I'll pass on that, for I would rather not presume to try answering that question, assuming that you are serious. If you were simply being dry, please excuse me.

 

[LawDog]

Gentlemen:

Without regard to whether or not Mr. Stanley is a charter memeber of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, or simply a worry wart, or just plain nuts, it remains that the legislation he mentioned has been passed and signed into law.

Intel Reform Law

Just as a exercise in propaganda, compare what the PrisonPlanet article (and Stanley) claim the new law states regarding drivers licenses and Social Security Numbers

Drivers Licenses will also contain DNA biometric markers and include the holders Social Security Number

vs. what the new law actually says about the same (Sec 7214).

Ruminate on what you find, and then you might consider reading over the entire law.

*shrug*

Up to you.

LawDog

 

[The Rabbi]

Thank you, LawDog. Best way to clear the stink of propoganda is with the clean air of facts.

 

[alan]

LawDog:

If memory serves, and assuming that the excerpt of this Intelligence Reform Act that I saw was correct, the law blocks the use of Social Security Numbers on Drivers Licenses.

Interesting thing about that is the following. That might well serve for licenses issued IN THE FUTURE, but what of all those "soschs" already recorded respecting drivers licenses previously issued, the ones used to "track all those dead beat dads", or at least that was one story that I got once upon a time.

By the way, when you walk into a gun shop, to buy a firearm, and a NICS check is run, you present your drivers license as identification. The dealer keys in the license number, and guess what comes up on the dealers end, your "sosch". This is NOT hear say, it is what I have seen, Rick Stanley and any other members of the tinfoil lined hat brigade having nothing to do with anything.

I will look at the section you linked tomorrow. Looked at the section you linked a moment ago, and we are both correct, though my question about EXISTING data remains. After all, the FBI did create what they blithly called an AUDIT LOG, the provisions of Brady that precluded record keeping notwithstanding. By the bye, what about all those other data basses, where all manner of things are indexed and or retreivable via Social Security Numbers.

I ask the foregoing questions because I have little or no trust in the government, whether any particular administration be Democratic or Republican. It that causes me to become a member of The Tinfoil Hat Brigade, so be it.

 

[Selfdfenz]

Isn't there a prohibition regarding the collection and archival of records of firearms purchases. I seem to remember that there is such a rule but I also seem to remember that it's been violated on more than one occassion by the feds and select state governmental agencies, or at least I got that impression that might be happening from reading the American Rifleman some time ago.

The fact there is a law on the books today ( good link Lawdog) preventing this is no assurance the feds will not violate, dismiss or repeal the law the minute they see fit to. Nothing would stop them for putting an exception in place down the road.

Just my 2 pence

S-

 

[jrhines]

Alan said -"By the way, when you walk into a gun shop, to buy a firearm, and a NICS check is run, you present your drivers license as identification. The dealer keys in the license number, and guess what comes up on the dealers end, your "sosch". "
I'm an FFL, I run e-checks in the NICs system almost daily. The INPUT of the SSN is optional (I usually don't, but it does seem to slow the search), and all I have ever got back is DELAY or PROCEED. Maybe it's just me...

 

[GigaBuist]

I didn't follow LawDog's link, yet, as I'm winding down for the night and don't want to spike my blood pressure by having to read legalese, but if memory serves "biometric" data was mentioned in the legislation.

Remember, "biometric" can simply mean height/weight/eye color/hair color information. It doesn't have to be DNA and I'm pretty sure we don't have the means to even do that at this point as others have mentioned: cost and all that jazz.

So, just because the word "biometric" pops up don't immediately jump up, put on the tin foil hat, and screaming about DNA. Eventually it will be DNA, if this type of stuff stands, but that's a ways off so its best to keep the rhetoric over in the "sane" realm at this point.

Onto another matter:

By the way, when you walk into a gun shop, to buy a firearm, and a NICS check is run, you present your drivers license as identification. The dealer keys in the license number, and guess what comes up on the dealers end, your "sosch". This is NOT hear say, it is what I have seen,

I'm sure many states have such a system. I did some looking into this a week or so ago myself as Michigan is now requiring an SSN for a driver's license. Its all part of the dead-beat-dad thing I'm told. In my searching I found something stating that Michigan was the ONLY state not yet doing this. Could be wrong, and I don't even have a source for it, but I -do- know that my SSN has never been given to the Secretary of State for a driver's license. Now, whether or not we're the only state not requring it, I don't know.

Also, the DLN is not required for the NICS check to the best of my knowledge. I too thought it was until my last firearms purchase. My DL was not asked for until after the NICS check ran through without a hitch. Every other time (uh, 17, 18 times?) it was asked for beforehand but not this time around. Hence, I must conclude that a DLN isn't actually required for the NICS to process. I also never put my SSN on the 4473.

However, my speculation on the requirement of a DLN for a NICS could easily be put to rest as we have a number of FFL 01's on this board.

If you saw a firearms dealer key a DLN into a system and get an SSN back it was probably just a state based system that gave him a safety check verifying that this DLN was actually valid. If they ask for it before the NICS is complete its just to verify that what you wrote on the 4473 is actually valid. Many dealers have compared the two on me before calling it in. I'd imagine the last one didn't because I had just got done shooting machine guns at the place and it was pretty obvious that I had my DL on me, that it was valid, and 2-3 other people had already seen it.

 

[jrhines]

To request a FBI NICS E-Check (via the internet), you must supply;
Last name
First name
Sex
Race
Date of birth
State of residence
Citizenship
Countries of Citizenship
Purpose Code - Long gun, handgun

optionally you may provide;
Middle name
Cadence -Jr, III, Sr
Height
Weight
Place of Birth
SSN

I have found that omitting the SSN slowed down the check somewhat ( 2 hrs rather than 10 mins.) You do not need a DL to do a NICS check. However you do need some form of positive ID, and you need to say what that ID was on the form 4473. The Maryland state application for a restricted weapon (handgun or assault weapon) requires your DL number and your SSN be supplied to the state police, then the police do the NICS and give you the transaction number and, if you pass, they declare you "NOT DISAPPROVED".

 

[alan]

GigaBuist & jrhines:

My comment about the dealer keying in a drivers liicense number and my "socsh" appearing on his machine might be peculiar to Pennsylvania, which is where the transaction took place, still the two are obviously tied together. For what legitimate purpose, LEGITIMATE being the operational phrase?

GigaBuist:

That "we use it to track dead beat dads" is, and please pardon me, an outrageous load of crap. Additionally, for whatever it might be worth, I never hunted, hunting being something that I'm simply not particularly interested in. I used to buy a hunting license because I felt my license fee was a small contribution to something worth while, game management. The first time I was asked for my Social Security Number, was the end of the above mentioned "contributions". I understand that it's required for other "recreational licenses" too, and as for that business of Dead Beat Dads, what about the Dead Beat Moms, one example thereof I personally knew. She was never called to task.

By the way, given that this Intelligence Reform Act, now the law of the land, contained a provision making tying social security numbers to drivers licenses, "a no-no", I wonder as to what the several states will do, and then, what about the data bases already containing them.

Did either of you ever hear that old military story, where the commanding officer walks into the company, regiment or division offices and announces that all the file cabinets, the ones loaded weith all manner of paper that nobody ever looks at are to be emptied, the papers to be burned. Before burning, make three copies of evereything.

jrhines:

Please re-read my post. I said nothing about the dealer keying in the customers Social Security Number, what I said was that the dealer's keying in the customers drivers license caused his social security number to appear. I personally viewed this. Now then, it is possible that this arrangement is peculiar to Pennsylvania, where the transaction took place, I cannot speak to that possibility, because I do not know. It is my understanding that social security numbers are "optional" on the federal form(s), however in PA, the state fuzz requires them, or so I was told by a dealer.

In general, what I consider the general public's mealy mouthed attitude regarding "offical demands" is philosophically annoying to me. This might well be a failing on my part, but what ever happened to that perfectly reasonable question that might be couched in the following terms. Regarding this information you are demanding, exactly what is the basis for your request? I suspect that to many people do not even think of asking that most simple of questions, the one that reads WHY.

 

[rock jock]

Hmm.

Do a THR search of 'Rick Stanley'.

Anything coming out of his piehole, I want independent verification of.

Yup! Rick Stanley and the word "credibility" really don't belong in the same paragraph.

 

[jrhines]

alan - Nor did I say the dealer keyed in a SSN. My point was that for a NICS check over the internet you don't need a DL number. I don't know what you saw, but IMHO it wasn't a dealer keying in a state DL to accomplish a federal NICS. It might be some sort of state check, but that isn't a NICS. In Maryland the State Police run the NICS for regulated weapons. The state form (MSP77R) requires your state DL and your SSN as well as the stuff required by the NICS (name, DOB, etc.). On the state form the SSN is not optional, it won't be processed without it. The police then do a standard NICS (like I do for all long guns) and return the NTN to me for entry onto the federal 4473. They also get the clients home address, home phone and work phone, but ya' don't need any of that for a NICS either. Yeah, I know, MD sucks, but I'm doing the best I can.
The MD DoT uses a SOUNDEX number for DLs, but as I recall several states use SSN as DLs, student IDs, etc.

 

[alan]

jrhines wrote:

Yeah, I know, MD sucks, but I'm doing the best I can.

*****

I think you might have misunderstood my comments. To set that straight, nothing I said was intended to criticize you personally. As to other aspects, Pennsylvania is a Point of Contact state, sounds as if Maryland is also, given your reference to the state police running background checks.

As for Maryland "sucking", perhaps it does, however Pennsylvania has it's police and legislative Knuckle heads also, as well as some in the judiciary. In any case the Maryland Legislature makes law there, correct me if I'm wrong, and it all to often turns out that people get the sort of government they didn't vote against. Ultimately, when and if the laws go "bad", it is the fault of the electorate. Perhaps that group is more heavily weighted with anti gunners than with pro gun people, and the majority vote accordingly.

We have certainly experienced this sort of thing natrionally, though in that case, the problem might lie in and with getting The Congress to admit that it had "blown it", via enactment of really piss poor legislation, which they have belatedly acted to repeal. Even with changes in that body, significant changes, I hadn't noticed the repeal of any federal anti gun or gun control laws.

rock jock:

I do not recall if you have come "late" to this discussion, however respecting Mr. Stanley, as I noted earlier, he could be the world's greatest nut case, the originator of the tinfoil hat bdrigade, or he could simply be a pain in the ass worry wart. It remains however, that the legislation he made mention of has in fact become the law of the land, with such "warts" as might be inherent in it. Independent Verification of that can be found by reading the bill itself. I imaging that thomas.loc .gov contains the full text.I understand that it is quite large, as that sort of thing usually is, but it has been enacted, and Rick Stanley's credibility, or the lack thereof has nothing to do with that.

 

[LawDog]

It has become 'law of the land'

the United States Congress passed legislation
yesterday that requires the States to surrender their regulatory rights
over driver's licenses and birth certificates to The Department of Homeland
Security.

Any and all changes to birth certificates and DL's must be authorized by the issuing State.

the Department of Homeland Security will issue new
uniformity regulations to the States requiring that all Drivers Licenses
and Birth Certificates meet minimal Federal Standards with regard to US
citizen information, including biometric security provisions.

It suggests that birth certificates be standardized in the United States. Biometrics are never mentioned in connection with birth certificates. It further suggests that all DL's issued in the United States be capable having a digital photo.

It authorizes biometric additions to passports - not drivers licenses and not birth certificates.

Drivers Licenses will also contain DNA biometric markers and include the holders Social Security Number and be required for receiving and applying for all State and Federal benefits programs.

The words 'DNA biometric markers' are never found anywhere in that law, and 'biometric markers' are found regarding entry and exit onto US soil, nowhere else. The law specifically forbids the placing of your SSN on your DL, and goes further to forbid placing your SSN on your DL as a bar code or mag stripe, and finally, forbids placing any partial part of your SSN on your DL.

Also included in this bill is a law to require The Department of Homeland Security to establish a separate ID system for citizens to use prior to boarding airplanes,

He finally got one right. Sort of. Any passports used to enter or exit the United States will have to have biometric information in them.

This is why I want independent verification of anything Rick Stanley says. He brazenly lies (SSN's on DL's!), bends the truth past the point of recognition, and spins what's left into something only vaguely resembling what actually happened.

I'm not happy about some parts of that law. Outright lying about it only makes it harder to point out the disturbing things.

LawDog

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Are y'all saying the South was right?

Yep.

 

[Gbro]

My $00.02....

New here, and trying to acclimate to this very interesting .ORG;

I have never felt so insecure about my rights.
The homeland intrusion department is in the process of taking over the Emergency services in all states. They are so very cleaver in doing so too.

Our little Podunk fire Dept. recieved a nice big grant fron the intrusion Dept. for the purchace of a thermal image camera. What a tool for us, ........."BUT" what a "PLUG" for them! in the paper, we read about the great new equipment made avalible to us from a grant from the HSD.

Do not, How do we "NOT" get hooked up in this?

Terror Comes In Manny Forms, Department of Homeland Security =(Constitutional Terroists)