National ID seen in 9/11 panel plan

[longrifleman]

Here's another problem that hasn't been pointed out yet. The information in govt databases isn't 100% accurate(candidate for understatement of the year award!). What happens to the poor schmuck with the wrong box checked next to his name? Have you ever tried to get information corrected at a govt office? How do you know which office gave them the wrong info? Do you honestly think you will be given access to your own file to make sure it is accurate?

As far as the general attitude towards govt abuse vs. the perception of safety the public will be happy to be fooled until the cattle cars start unloading next to the mass graves. Again.

 

[Waitone]

We already have a national ID card. Its called a drivers license. Valid in all US territories and possessions.

It is not fully integrated so the federales will have to do a little work to cross link various databases. We already have a convenient field. . . .social security number.

The only need for a national ID is to formalize a database.

I oppose it for one simple minded reason beyond it being screaming un-American. Once the national ID appears, it will by default become the only layer of security. It will be assumed to be valid and those in charge of security systems will get lazy. As it stands now bad guys run the risk of screwing up and getting caught because of the many layers of bureaucracy caused by multiple ID systems. A national ID makes the federales more efficient (which causes a high pucker factor in freedom loving people) and allows badguys to concentrate on overcoming only one layer of security.

 

[Art Eatman]

Matt Payne, I'm always tossing out ideas with which I may or may not agree. I do a fair amount of Devil's Advocate stuff, in part just to give folks a way to consider the opposition's arguments.

Face it: A guy's gotta figure out, sometimes, which is more important to HIM, his family or his personal principles. Sure, we all hope principles come first, but...I figure thinking beats emoting.



And I think my second post is as good a message as any.

, Art

 

[Jeff White]

Waitone said;

We already have a national ID card. Its called a drivers license. Valid in all US territories and possessions.

It is not fully integrated so the federales will have to do a little work to cross link various databases. We already have a convenient field. . . .social security number.

I can check all states and territories and Canada through dispatch's computer system. It's already pretty much integrated.

I oppose it for one simple minded reason beyond it being screaming un-American. Once the national ID appears, it will by default become the only layer of security. It will be assumed to be valid and those in charge of security systems will get lazy.

Not so. The actual card means nothing. It's what's in the database that counts. Just last Thursday I pulled over a car being driven by a girl who had had her license suspended. When I asked if anyone else in the car had a valid license (so I wouldn't have to tow the car) the girl sitting next to her fished out her license. I asked the driver if she would give the other girl permission to drive her car, and she said yes. Then I went back and checked the second girls license...guess what?? It was suspended too.

Possession of a card that says you are an approved good citizen or a licensed driver means absolutly nothing. It may serve as identification so a merchant will accept your check, but it means nothing to the police.

A national ID would mean nothing and the minimal security it may provide is not worth the trade off in lost freedom.

Jeff

 

[ctdonath]

What happens to the poor schmuck with the wrong box checked next to his name?

Go watch "Brazil"

 

[R.H. Lee]

Jeff White said

I can check all states and territories and Canada through dispatch's computer system. It's already pretty much integrated.

So if I get pulled over in Alma Illinois, and hand over my California Driver's License, what information can the dispatcher retrieve?

 

[Denko]

All that has to be done to make people want the card is to offer a carrot.Free health care,no interest car loan,whatever.There will be people camping out in line for the carrot.Of course their will still be terrorism,so the card will be used for more and more intrusive monitoring.Eventually we will have to show the card to leave our local area.Throw in the RFID chip technology,sheeat you won't even have to wait in line at wall-mart.And we will all be safe.

 

[Bainx]

My conservative in-laws leaped at, applauded and foamed at the mouth for a nat. ID card after they hear some talk show person say it would be a good thing.

Sad, really sad

 

[moa]

IIRC, during the period of the Soviet Union, the government had national ID cards and internal passports. If the officials wanted to mess with someone, they simply took their ID card away. Apparently, this made life for the former ID holder hell on wheels. For all intents and purposes they no longer officially existed, and were subject to a all kinds of harrassmeent and arrests.

National ID card? No thanks.

 

[madcowburger]

I saw this coming as long ago as 1970 or 1971, when I was 13 or 14. I thought of it then in terms of the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13, without which no one can buy or sell. Even now I see it as, if not literally that, then the immediate precursor to it.

All those years ago I hoped that by the time it reared its ugly head for real, I'd be ready -- well dug-in in a secure, private, self-sufficient, and defensible place, and well-armed and supplied. But in all this time I have been unable to achieve this goal. I remain completely at the mercy of the forces of evil. Even semi-effective resistance will not be an option. My only choices will be compliance or martyrdom. It's easy to kid yourself how you'd choose until the real thing is really staring you right in the face.

I suppose that some percentage of LEOs are still Christians, at least nominally. I wonder how many of them will quit and lose their paychecks and pensions rather than enforce the will of the Antichrist against their fellow Christians who try to conscientiously refuse to take the Mark of the Beast?

I am beginning to envy the dead, all those who lived and died in a time when this was still something like a free, Christian nation, instead of the literally demonic, Hell-on-Earth police state it is rapidly becoming.

MCB

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

Oh yeah, I remember way back when in the Marine Corps. we had Liberty cards. The SgtMaj. could pull your liberty card at any time for any thing. For that matter virtually any NCO could for whatever reason. Then you couldn't get off base because you had to show the card as you left and then go through the card and ID process before you could get back on the base.

The Duty NCO maintained the liberty cards in a box in the DNCO hut/office/shack/tent with a log book. He logged the card out and logged the card in.

I suppose the county LEO's could maintain everyones National ID card with a log book. But that would be a hassle since everyone works and plays at different hours. The LEO's would need a separate office and staff so they could get some rest.

Wait a minute, we could attach the local "National ID Card" office to the Department of Homeland Security as an adjunct to the TSA since we'd only need it for travel purpose's anyway. If you're gonna travel just fill in your itinerary and they could check your background before leaving for the airport or bus/train station. That would be sort of a streamline boarding pass so you wouldn't have to go through the ole "Bulgemaster 2000" and further searches.
Hmmmmmm, that could work.

Yeah, what better way to insure someone's identity than the local folks you live, work and play with on a regular basis? They'd know who you are if you didn't. And if we suspected our neighbors of doing any terrorist type stuff we could slip a note to the Duty NIDC issuer at the time we get our card and no one would have to know.


Just shoot me now.

Vick

 

[ctdonath]

In NY, you cannot obtain a driver's license without a Social Security Number (my immigrant wife found this out the hard way). Word is any license issued in the past without a SSN will soon be revoked until the SSN is provided.

That's a hell of a carrot.

 

[Waitone]

In NY, you cannot obtain a driver's license without a Social Security Number (my immigrant wife found this out the hard way). Word is any license issued in the past without a SSN will soon be revoked until the SSN is provided.

--Come to NC and procure a matricula card and / or a taxpayer ID (not a SSN). You can get the matricula card from street vendors. TAxpayer ID is a phone call to the IRS.

--Take both to a local Bank of America branch and open a checking account. You'll have to put down some bogus address, but what the hay. -

--Once you have a bank account go down to the DMV and apply for and receive a drivers license.

--Take your now valid NC drivers license to NY. Now will NY demand a valid SSN in addition to a valid DL or will they just assume a valid DL is ok.

BTW, how will NY know if a SSN is valid. AFAIK there is no easy way to verify the validity of a SSN. Seems congress has repeatedly refused to fund a quick check database.

 

[ctdonath]

how will NY know if a SSN is valid.

Right here.

Now will NY demand a valid SSN in addition to a valid DL or

Yes, they will. That's the point: no valid SSN on file, no NY DL. They find the SSN is missing, they pull the license.

 

[hammer4nc]

Check this out...

http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/aclu_flash_nationalid.htm

 

[parsec]

Won't happen........YOU WILL be tracked. Eventually the technology will be there and it will happen. We literally have cameras up at almost EVERY intersection in my city. Do I feel safer? Are we safer? Did we approve of them going up and who paid for them??? The ID cards are one in the same........If the cameras go up they never come down. Ever.

I normally just lurk, but when I read this I had to post. I know quite a bit more about how these intersection cameras work than most people. I wrote some of the software that they use. Trust me, those cameras are not being used to spy on us and track our every move. First, those cameras are of such poor quality that you usually can't tell the difference between a mini van and an SUV with them. Second, they're usually black and white, but that is changing. Third, they're never set up to record 24/7. The software running these things is smart enough to tell when an accident happens, and only about 30 seconds of video is actually saved when that happens. Fourth, when they're set up at every intersection like that the video almost never makes it past the computer sitting inside the cabinet attached to the pole. The only time people look at that video is to set the thing up and to fix it when it stops working.

You may have noticed the wires in the road at intersections that the traffic light uses to tell if a car is present. Well, these intersection cameras are really just meant to replace those. The wires are no good because they get broken too easily (all it takes is a single frost heave), and then the whole road has to be torn up to replace them. The cameras are more expensive to buy, but they cost A LOT less to maintain. Trust me, these cameras are too poor to even tell what type of car you're driving, let alone take your picture or read your license plate.

P.S. Sorry for the OT post. I just had to clear this up. I'll blend back into the shadows now.

 

[MagKnightX]

Deine ausweispapiers, bitte... I mean, your National ID card, sir?

 

[ctdonath]

parsec:
As one working on security systems, I appreciate that the cameras are currently unable to perform Big Brother tasks. Unfortunately, inevitable improvements will soon improve them to the point of being irresistable to abuse. A higher resolution camera, more memory, and a network connection needs only the appropriate software to start tracking. Heck, a new cell phone has everything needed.

 

[dustind]

Asking if you would trade freedom for security is like asking if you would trade freedom for a bigger penis or a space ship. It may be fun to think about, but you can not actually make those trades.

hammer4nc: That video is great.

 

[1911Tuner]

Prove it to Us

The concept of a positive way to prove identity is: Nothing new...Pretty much already with us in many subtle ways...and in and of itself not a major issue.

What IS major is the potential that it holds. Cards can and will be counterfeited. It's too easy to do. The obvious solution? The microchip.
The technology is already there...and I like the microchip when it comes to
getting a lost pet back. I decidedly do NOT like the idea of having one in ME.

It's got the potential to be a controlling factor in our daily lives...and at some point it WILL become that. It's already pretty much accepted that
control is the agenda of some of our legislators..maybe even most of them.
Mind control...Gun control...Emissions control...Animal control...The word
keeps popping up everywhere. How long would it be until the National ID
card...or microchip...would be required before we could transact our daily
business? At that point, it could become a tracking device of everything that we buy or sell.

Since many consumer goods are necessities...a large purchase of food or clothing could be flagged. "Why do you need that much cereal? Your family isn't that large." How long would it take to convince the official that
we are simply taking advantage of a sale to offset the higher price next month instead of feeding members of an underground terror cell? How many of us buy in bulk for the price break that it provides? I do it a lot.

How long before it could be used to authorize such purchases, and turn us down for what is deemed unnecessary? "Sorry Mr. Smith. That is an unauthorized purchase. You bought a box of hunting ammunition on 10/10/2006. You aren't authorized for another box until 10/11/2007.
You simply don't NEED that much ammunition."

See? There's another word that worms its way into our daily lives. "What
NEED do you have of that rifle...that quantity of food....that much power in your automobile? Why do you NEED that gun? You already have one. You
surely don't NEED another one." It's already in place in several areas of
our lives. "Mr. Jones just withdrew $10,000.00. We have to report it to the IRS. Wonder why he NEEDS that much cash." How long before that
amount falls to 5 thousand...or two thousand...or less?

It hands the government the power to determine what we need or don't need...and the power to deny it to us if it isn't deemed necessary.

I'll pass. To those who feel that it would be acceptable, I suggest that you
go and read the book of Revelations at the back of a King James Bible.
Whether your beliefs are Christian, atheistic, or agnostic...the Mark of the Beast is becoming a reality even as we read this.

 

[parsec]

As one working on security systems, I appreciate that the cameras are currently unable to perform Big Brother tasks. Unfortunately, inevitable improvements will soon improve them to the point of being irresistable to abuse. A higher resolution camera, more memory, and a network connection needs only the appropriate software to start tracking. Heck, a new cell phone has everything needed.

That is true, but people give computers too much credit. Even improved video will not be good enough. Computer vision needs nearly perfect video along with nearly perfect, constant lighting conditions. Right now computer vision is capable of identifying cars in laboratory conditions, but applying it to the real world is another story entirely. When looking for specific vehicles these systems provide so many false positives that it is too costly to have enough people to sort through them all. And no acceptable solution is on the horizon. Even if it were, could you imagine how much effort it would still take to find the one vehicle you're interested in? During the D.C. sniper incident police were looking for a white box truck. There are so many white box trucks in the D.C. area that using a computer vision system would have been too tedious. Computer vision is only good for gathering general statistics about road usage, and just about everyone in the law enforcement and transportation sectors realize that. The only agency that still needs convincing is DARPA.

 

[Jeff White]

RileyMC asked;

So if I get pulled over in Alma Illinois, and hand over my California Driver's License, what information can the dispatcher retrieve?

If you get pulled over in Alma, it won't be by me, I don't work there.. However when I check a license, I give dispatch, last name, first name, middle initial, sex/race and date of birth. In the case of an out of state check, I will specify what state (California in your example). When the dispatcher keys the information into the computer, it goes first through LEADS which is a local database that will give warrants, officer safety information etc. specific to Illinois. Next it goes through NCIC (National Crime Information Center the federal data base) which will give any warrants entered into NCIC by federal agencies, officer safety information (most states enter orders of protection into NCIC, as an aside to this an order of protection notification on NCIC has a line on it that reminds the officer that any CCW is not valid under federal law, I have to assume that this is nationwide as we don't have CCW in Illinois and I see it on every OOP alert. Must be part of the boilerplate alert.) Finally (this all happens in seconds) the inquiry goes to California and they return your DL record. Some states send the complete file which may include information on recent traffic convictions etc. and some only send the basic information like the current address, classification and if the license is valid, suspended, revoked or surrendered.

I can get a person's criminal history through NCIC (if they have none I simply get a response that the subject has no criminal history)

I can also find out what vehicles a person may have registered to them. My point in the earlier post was that the actual card means nothing. The database information is what counts. A national ID card would give us nothing. It would only be a way for the government to invade privacy and take more civil rights away. I find it ironic that in many cases the same moronic legislators who support a national ID card, often support laws to ease up on the identification requirements for states to issue drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. We already have a national ID by default. Most states issue a photo ID to those people who don't qualify for drivers licenses. It's hard to live in our society without some type of ID, however those who choose to still have that option.

A terrorist would be able to forge whatever identity papers he or she needed to get a valid ID card just like they do now. I see a big cost in tax dollars, no increase in security and loss of freedom and privacy. A national ID is a bad idea and simply not needed.

Jeff