Some Rethinking May Be In Order.....

[Dave McCracken]

The more I learn about the shotgun, the more I realize I don't know it all.

A case in point...

When I started shooting trap frequently 3 years ago, I started with a choke verging on Extra Full. I was told it would help me learn to get on the clays better, and I think it did.

When I bought the LC barrel last October, I started out with the Full tube friend H Smith gave me. I still shot a few rounds with the TBs old barrel, which has 38 POC vs that Smith tube's 39.

Then, I tried a Light Full from Carlson's, which came in right at .700, giving 28.5 POC.

The recent "Duh" thread mentions me adapting to the colder weather by upping the load and using a Modified tube with 18 POC.

Through all this, most of the time I've shot about 100 rounds at trap a week. While there's days I run a round or two,22 or 23/25 is much more typical. The misses are mostly not the equipment's fault,they're mine.Either I misread the line or my timing is a bit off.

So today I got to PGC, bought some supplies and ran into Oysterman, who is registered here but posts little. I shot a round of trap with him and garnered a 22. OK...

Then, I decided to try something. I swapped out the Modified tube,(Nominally .710") and screwed in the IC tube. I had this one miked, it's .720", giving it 8.5 POC in the LC's .7285" barrel. That's open even for IC.

I stepped up to the line again.I shot a 22 again.The breaks looked identical. One or two might have been chippier than usual, but that can happen even without changing chokes or loads. Most targets disintegrated dramatically. As usual, I had little smoke, which bothers me not. Smoke, to some point, means losing some spread and getting unneeded density.

Someplace during this Duckman showed up, and we headed for the Wobble trap, where much hilarity ensued. My best round ever here was 20, and today I scored 17-19 for three rounds. Obviously, the open choke wasn't a handicap at this either.Again, most breaks were all we could hope for.

Patterning this load shows it's not the tightest one around. I'm using the Starshot mentioned in This Old Barrel. It's usable, but not the hardest nor roundest nor most uniform I've seen. And while patterning is essential, it's a two dimensional record of a three dimensional event. I'm inclined to think the shot string runs a bit shorter with the more open choke, which COULD account for the effect on the targets. A shorter string means more pellets at most points in the string, more whack to that slice of stack.

Best guess, I take my trap straightaways around 35 yards and the angles a bit less. IC's not usually considered ideal at 30 yards, but maybe our opinions are wrong.It'll be interesting to see how things change once the area warms up....

 

[kudu]

I have frequently shot 27 yd trap with the modified choke in the gun, never had problems with the clays breaking and could usually shoot at least a 22. Changing to full didn't really change the breaks any untill the targets started to drop to the ground and then you could see the difference.

 

[TrapperReady]

I shoot trap with Full choke. However, I played the game using other chokes in the past. This has been more "played around with" as opposed to actual testing. Nevertheless, I find that I don't really start losing targets (from the 16 yard line) until I drop to Skeet/Cylinder. At that point, especially if I'm shooting 1oz or less, my scores start to fall apart. I do notice that with Modified and IC, I don't really powder the clays anymore, but it still counts the same.

On occasion, I've seen newer shooters really struggle with Full choke... but rapidly improve by switching to less constriction.

One of the things I like about using Full choke is that it makes it possible for me to better judge my shooting. With a wider pattern, I can get a little sloppy and still break birds. That's OK if I was willing to settle for scores of 20-21, but to get consistently better, you need to be more precise. It's also quite gratifying to see the clay absolutely disintegrate into its molecular pieces.

 

[sm]

The only absolute about shotguns - there ain't one .

Well I see this still holds true.

What do I know, I shot skeet...Can't back up to shoot, like trap folks- I can shoot in semi circle tho...even that one stuck out in the middle.

I think we were better off with 26" , 28" and 30" bbls with IC , M and F respectfully. NO wrenches to keep up with and well, we just shot the darn things.

We just blamed the shells...

I have taken a bbl marked "Full" or "Mod" and had a fellow shoot it. He felled game...then I informed him the bbl was actually Skeet or IC. I think too many folks shoot too tight a choke...especially with the improvements on shotshells. [ Hard shot]

I'm beginning to think the "old pro's" were right. Ten Thousandths choke works too well for too many things, too many times.

I find a fixed choked bbl that is then thousandths...got a good mind to put it on my newest 870 and hide the bbl that came with the gun. I'm serious. Okay I want two bbls one 28" with ten thousandths and one 20" with five thousandths.

I'll adjust payload - like we did before we got all hi-tech.

 

[HSMITH]

It is the 'old man' loads we shoot Dave, IMO. They just won't open up the way a faster load will. You will find that the patterns at 25 yards, 30, 35 and 40 don't show a typical "cone", rather they tend to spread a little early and then open quite gradually compared to a 1200 FPS load. The open choke also doesn't damage as many pellets as the full tubes do leaving you with more pellets to work with. Patterns never get dense like a full choke does, but they hang together reasonably well.

I have had some really good days on the trap field with 1 ounce of #9 shot at a measly 1000 FPS, including a straight from the 24 yard line with a modified choke.

Knowing this and having shot hundreds and hundreds of patterns you can imagine what is going through my mind when the guys in my sporting clays squad change chokes at every station and bring a bag with at least 5 different loads in it, loading one kind first and the other for the second shot and garbage like that. Drives me NUTS. I shoot a nice 1 ounce load of 8's and unless the break is outside of 40 yards I shoot IC chokes all the way around. I also point out who is breaking targets and who isn't when one of these guys changes chokes or loads MIDWAY through a station!!!!!

I guess I am just trying to say that if we shoot well the load is very much secondary, most shotshell loads will work for nearly all clay target presentations you run into, and do it with a lot less choke than most people think.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, folks....

Kudu, I've done little from the back fence. I have played with chokes down to a tight Modified for 23 to 25yds. While I accepted that most folks use more choke than needed, I was and am surprised how little is needed under SOME conditions. I bet that if I tried this on an 80 degree day, results would greatly differ.

TR, I advocate tight chokes for beginners at trap. They swap a few lost birds now for better progress a little further on. For complete beginners that need some shattered targets fo the confidence factor, more open is better.

sm,"Absolute",like "Ultimate",is a word that applies to little in Shotgunland. This Old Barrel will end up with 5 POC, if all goes well. I'll bet the usual flagon of mead it'll work well for SC, upland stuff, and as a GP barrel for most anything under 5 lbs and 35 yards. That'll be another project...

H, The Book says these trundle along at 1200 FPS. That's in warmer weather, I'm sure. I'm using 1 1/8 oz right now to see if any difference exists under cold conditions.

You're on the money, IMO, about the spreads. Also about the SC types who switch something on every presentation. The Pragmatic Shotgunner's Mantra, "Just shoot the thing"...

 

[sm]

Not going to touch that bet. I know what 5 POC will do.

I think the screw- in chokes are a good idea, granted these have been around for ~100 yrs, just nobody took them serious until more "modern times". [ Whom was the fellow in the 1890's [?] that suggested and came up with the idea and prototype - I forget ?]

Unfortunately folks get "advances" and go bonkers with them. I shot many ducks with my skeet choke screwed in. Steel compatable, I either forgot,or didn't care. I shot too many rds of 5 stand with a skeet choke, and did well and not only in 12 gauge either. IIRC my best score in 5 stand was with a Citori O/U using fixed choked skeet bbls...in 20 gauge. I ran a 59/60 . Using the same gun with the 28 ga bbls ( again fixed choke for skeet) ran a 56/60. I really think the gun/load/ ga was more capable, just the fellow behind the stock [me] didnt' allow enough for the wind kicking up and the drizzling rain.

I still contend some folks need to be given a gun, ammo and told to shoot the darn thing for 1k rds. Not allowed to know anything more than basic fundamentals. For goodness sakes no "wish catalogs" , no internet advice, no flowered shirted gun written articles.

Focus on target using fundamentals. Apply to other platforms as well besides Shotguns. Revolvers and Bolt actions ...from there we progress.

 

[TrapperReady]

When shooting sporting clays...

If you are shooting for fun, the choke-tube twisters are a real PITA. However, if you are shooting for money, pride, the lunch tab or an "RC and Moon Pie" , I would much prefer to be shooting against one of those folks.

When someone is looking to get that fine an advantage from their hardware, you can almost bet that it's to compensate for some flaw in their shooting. Chances are, that flaw will show up at some point during the round. If it doesn't, a subtle comment or suggestion is usually enough to toss them over the edge.

These folks remind me of that scene in "Tin Cup", where Kevin Costner's character is wearing every kind of golf-swing aid available. In fact, the analogy to golf is pretty apt, because it's usually these same types who would spend several minutes agonizing over which club to use and what kind of trajectory is optimal... only to hit it fat and not get anywhere near the green.

FWIW, it doesn't seem that this holds true for trap (at least not nearly as much). Most of the guys I see using blinders, acting pompous and having a near-religious pre-round ritual usually shoot pretty darned well.

 

[sm]

"Target Seeker" *grin*

These folks remind me of that scene in "Tin Cup", where Kevin Costner's character is wearing every kind of golf-swing aid available.

Anybody got any bright ideas...I need a get rich quickie scheme.

"If you build it they will buy it to improve shooting" < --steal and butcher a line from another Costner movie. How is that for an " Honest Motto?

I know, we will make a dealie like a "deer -away" signal that mounts on car bumpers. Stick that on the gun ( somewhere got to get around the light rails...) and tell folks it "enables the bbl to aquire target". If you miss it is because YOU ( the shooter) used poor trigger control and pulled the shot.

$19.95 plus S&H...

 

[Dave McCracken]

IIRC, there was a patent taken out in the 1860s for choke tubes that screw on to the muzzle. Cannot recall the name of the inventor.

I like tubes. They enable us to adapt to varied conditions and game. I don't try to substitute them for expertise.

And, immediately after some SC fan with 14 tubes on him makes a selection and screws it in, mention how Roster noted shots into the wind need a bit more constriction and downwind a bit less. Busts Hades out of their focus....

sm, if there's an absolute about making money, it has to be that it's hard to lose money on an enterprise featuring naked women and cold beer.

 

[riverdog]

I don't know about naked women and cold beer, but

... when I start playing around (unscientific experimenting) with a new 870 barrel, I usually start out with a bunch of choke tubes and then work it down. With my RC 870 barrel I use one marked "SK" for Skeet and either IM or Full for Trap depending on where we're standing. With my Browning O/U it's SK over IC, or Full over IM.

My Baker came with two chokes, .725 and .705. When I ordered additional chokes, rather than buying one at a time and paying the shipping more than once, I ordered four tubes. I bracketed the .725 with .720 and .730, and I added two tighter chokes for Trap, a .690 and a 695. Once I determine what works best for me at what range three of those chokes will stay home.

So how do you guys choke for SC/5 Stand -- IC or IM? Some of the ranges seem far for IC, but some of the close range shots (eg., the wabbit) would be tough with a tighter choke. What's the plan?

 

[PJR]

There are days when I will change chokes frequently and others when I can't be bothered. Either way it doesn't seem to matter all that much. Ask me to choose one choke for sporting and it's light modified. It has the reach for a 45 yard target but isn't so tight that I can't catch the shorter ranges. If the target is beyond 45 yards I need harder shot, a tighter choke, more lead and a priest. I shot 200 sporting targets today and the majority were with light modified and the scores were acceptable.

I also shot a couple rounds of trap today with a light full and the breaks were gratifiying with the majority solidly smoked. I then swapped out to a light modified and I broke the same number of birds but didn't smoke as many. Smoked or chipped they all look the same on the score card.

Paul

 

[riverdog]

Light Modified. That's a choke I don't have for any shotgun. Is 5-Stand justification to buy another choke?

 

[TrapperReady]

riverdog - I feel sorry for you if you don't know about naked women and cold beer. They're both almost as good as shotgunning.

 

[riverdog]

I lived such a sheltered life -- 20+ years in the Navy, did my first West Pac in '72 and I didn't learn a thing about naked women and cold beer I've seen and had enough of both that at this point I'm more interested in shotguns and 1911's

 

[TrapperReady]

riverdog - In serious response to your earlier question... it all depends upon the presentations. For SC or 5-stand, I will normally stick with IC, unless there are quite a few longer shots. On a SC course, I'll usually ask the trapper (or someone in the clubhouse) what choke most use, and use that as a baseline.

The one thing I will do is carry a couple different loads with me. I usually have some with #8.5 shot and some with #7.5. The particular #7.5 loading tends to stay pretty tight. That way, on longer presentations, I can just change shells (which takes NO fiddling or extra time). The #8.5 uses softer lead and spreads a bit more, but maintains decent coverage.

 

[riverdog]

TR, thanks, that makes sense. I'll hold off on the LM choke.

 

[sm]

I normally shoot SK for Skeet and IC for 5 Stand.

Dave - Nekkid wimmin and cold brew, well now I have a logo to go with my motto...thanks.

I figure carbon fiber "pattern" and this "idea" of mine is a sure thing...need a name...Trapper - any ideas ?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Light Modified is a very useful choke. Only prob is that IC and Mod bracket it and 5 POC is hardly worth another tube's cost.

I shoot SC with just one choke. Oft that's a Skeet tube. Other times a Mod. Best choke lies someplace between,IMO. 10-15 POC, with good loads and a long cone.

I recently read a copy of "Pull!", a British magazine dedicated to clay sports.
Articles there indicated lots of folks are using a Light Full as the choke of choice for SC.

Also, I like to carry a couple loads for SC. 7 1/2s for bunnies and long stuff, 8 1/2s or 9s for the closer shots. Sometimes I use just 8 1/2s or 8s. Scores seem not to care...

sm, if you want to market a shooting accessory,have it made in England and sell it to the Spo'ting crowd at a 300% markup. Or do it in flat black and sell it to the "Tactical" bunch at the same price.

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - How about marketing a butt-cuff with one of those shiny naked mudflap wimmin' on it. It's tactical. It's shiny. It has a naked woman. How could you possibly go wrong?

 

[Edward429451]

Forgive the intrusion into your thread here. I'm tryin to follow what's being said...You guys lost me.

What's POC?

 

[sm]

POC = Points of Choke

For example a 12 gauge is "supposed" to have a .729 bore diameter. If one has 5 POC the choke is restricting five thousandths.

There are "standards" for each shotgun gauge. Problem is not all bbls are "this standard". For instance many Remington 12 gauge 870 and 1100 bbls are .725 bore diameter. 4 POC ( four thousandths different from "standard".

Some bbls are "overbored" or have been "backbored" - meaning the inside bore diameter is larger than the "standard" /

Hence the admonition , no matter what a bbl or choke is marked - the patterning of a bbl will determine what THAT bbl actual throws as far as pattern. The "markings" really just gives us a starting point.

Probably other sites can show better, but for example see: http://www.colonialarms.com/chokespecs.html

 

[Maddock]

Back about twenty years ago when I was trying to be serious at the clay bird games I shot four rounds with my SX M-1 alternating between a round with a 30†full that gave 70% at 40 yds and a round with a 28†skeet that gave 50% at 40 yds. I shot unusually consistently that day – 21&22/25 for each barrel. When I discussed this with my coach, after giving all my theories about the slightly larger pattern vs. density and all the other BS that a newbie can come up with my coach ended it with “Bud, when you missed you didn’t miss by just a littleâ€.
I have a friend who still quotes that to me.

 

[Edward429451]

Aha! Thanks sm.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Ed, sorry about the shorthand. One of these days I'll do a thread on converting Davespeak into conventional US style English.

Points Of Constriction denote the difference between choke and bore, if any.

Maddock,all too true. The way I've heard and seen it put is,"Misses are by feet, chokes give you inches"...

If you ever run across Tom Held busting trap clays with a 410 and half an oz of 7 1/2s,take heed.