Some see Fresno's DUI crackdown as a model

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You cant drink and drive responsibly
Really? I bet I could drive home from work sipping on a cold beer and still arrive at my destination with the slightest trace of alcohol in me and probably still safer than sally soccermom yelling at the kids, the guy who has been up working for the past 36 hours at the hospital, the exhausted construction worker who didn't get any sleep last night, the person digging through their cd's, the guy trying to find the french fry that fell into his lap, etc.

The list goes on, the point is lets not fall into the "zero tolerance" zero thinking thing that so many people. You don't turn into a bumbling fool just because you've had a beer.
 
That still doesnt mean drinking and driving is responsible behavior

I could go hop on the freeway and drive my corvette at 120mph while weaving through traffic and not using my blinkers. I might make it to my destination in one piece, but that does not mean I was being a responsible driver.

EDIT: And no you dont turn into a bumbling fool after one beer.. after 3 or 4 or a night of drinking, if you get behind the wheel, then you're a fool.
 
EDIT: And no you dont turn into a bumbling fool after one beer
So how is that not drinking and driving responsibly? Perhaps you mean to say that one cannot drive drunk responsibly?
 
you fly

do you support the regs that govern pilots drinking? gonna toss back a shot or two with pilot before take off? why not?
how about bus drivers?
 
do you support the regs that govern pilots drinking? gonna toss back a shot or two with pilot before take off? why not?
how about bus drivers?
If one is not impaired I see no difference in the number of passengers they're carrying. Could pilots do a shot and fly without being impaired? I imagine as long as we're talking 1 oz of liquor and average sized adults they probably actually could. Its terribly un-PC to suggest that you could drive, fly, carry a gun or a number of other things after consuming a serving of alcohol, but in general the impairment suffered from a serving is probably quite negligible.

As far as the regulations themselves...I'm libertarian and would not. It seems like a matter that should be between the pilot and the company that is letting them fly a 250 million dollar plane. I suspect they could be fired just as efficiently without bureaucracy.
 
substance is fine people overdoing it and trying to drive home is the issue kinda like guns don't murder stupid people do.
booze can't kill someone else on the road if you don't drink too much and drive
Yeah but the issue is that in different people different amount turn you into that drunken fool. Why should person A be punished for the act of consuming alcoholic and driving while still being perfectly coherant and able just because the same amount in person B turns them into a stumbeling moron? The issue is also that you are demonizing a substance in alcohol by making special laws and tolerances for it. I see a lot more people driving reckless everyday for very noticable reason. Certianly more then I do for reasons I can't notice by looking through their window such as alcohol. You simply can not judge someones ability based on something they consume because all substances effect all people differently.

And to those that do overdue it? Lock them up and punish them, but do it the same as anyone else on the road who drives recklessly. The fact you are perfectly alright locking someone up or ruining their lives when they are perfectly capable due to the fact others in the same position may not be and there is a possibility they might do something dangerous frightens me, esspecialy since it seems to be becoming the norm.

That still doesnt mean drinking and driving is responsible behavior
Show me actual unbiased proof that every single person who has consumed over the legal limit of alcohol is just as much a danger as anyone else driving recklessly or distracted and I'll be happy to start agreeing with your argument. I'll happily share the road with someone who can hold his alcohol and has had a few beers before someone who is distracted daydreaming about mary lous bongos or talking on their cell phone and swerving into my lane. Same point, some peopel can do it while driving saftly, some people can't. Stop worrying about the act or cause and worry about the driving recklessly.

I could go hop on the freeway and drive my corvette at 120mph while weaving through traffic and not using my blinkers. I might make it to my destination in one piece, but that does not mean I was being a responsible driver.
Exactly right you could. By weaving and not using blinkers I asume you are refering to driving recklessly, in which case yep you should be locked up. But you are no better or worse then someone who drives recklessly due to excess alcohol consumption. But if you can drive down the fast lane with clear skies and no traffic in your way at 120 MPH saftly then you should be able to.

And no you dont turn into a bumbling fool after one beer.. after 3 or 4 or a night of drinking, if you get behind the wheel, then you're a fool.
See that is the heart of the problem, total generalization and it is a very scary way to make a law. There are people at there who are intoxicated after one drink and will drive like crap. On the same note there are people who after three or four beers are still capable. Are all? No they are not all capable. But the ones who are should not be punished because of the others.

do you support the regs that govern pilots drinking? gonna toss back a shot or two with pilot before take off? why not?
how about bus drivers?
Is he perfectly functional? If so let the poor guy have a martini with an extra olive for all I care. Is he flying like crap? Lock him up.

Once agian, we have reckless driving laws. When someone is driving recklessly for any reason they need to be punished equally, reguardless of the reason. And yo ucan not make accurate descriptions of someones driving based on how much they have had to drink since all people respond differently to alcohol.
 
wally said:
I'm far more threatened every day by idiot drivers talking on cell phones and not paying attension, than by drunk drivers!
Considering the times and places that I am on the road, that is likely a true statement for me.
 
Travelling is a right. Operating a motor vehicle on public roads is a priviledge.

...but being forced to pay for public roads you don't have a right to drive on is just fine...:rolleyes:
 
A number of years ago, either the U of W or the U of Ill experimented with motorcycle riders and drinking in a controlled environment. They used a sampling of riders from novice to experienced. There was also one guy with a fair amount of road racing experience.

They used the MOST (Motorcycle Operator Skill Test) which used electronically timed signals to indicate quick lane changes and stopping. The test also has turns that must be negotiated within boundaries. (There's an ALMOST, too, BTW... :)

What they found out: The road racer could ride significantly better legally intoxicated than all the others could when sober. The MSF then decided not to release the results...
 
Its a complex issue

Checkpoints are a real pain and make you feel like you live in a police state, but drunk drivers have no business on the road, and .08 is not a scientific standard.

Here is a proposal that has no chance of happening:
Set a real DUI standard: 0.15 was the medically agreed upon limit, or use standardized sobriety test (hard to agree upon) but a trace does not count as a crime;
If a person gets a DUI, they lose the ability to drive a car for a long while, or for a lesser crime (lower BAC or other circumstances) they lose the ability to drive a car over a certain (very low) weight. This leaves serious DUIs on mopeds or scooters and lesser offenders in something like a SMART Car. You get on the Interstate a moped going the wrong way, you won't likely repeat that offense.:evil:;
Improve non-car transportation and urban planning. Make it easier (and safer) to get to the bar without taking your car. Most places in this Country, it is more dangerous to ride a bicycle anywhere than to drive drunk. Also, there should not be a law against walking home drunk.:banghead:

This is a modest proposal, letting offenders still get to work (akin to letting felons own and hunt with .22s), while making our streets safer, but will never happen. 'Mericans want the nanny state.
 
?

A number of years ago, either the U of W or the U of Ill experimented with motorcycle riders and drinking in a controlled environment. They used a sampling of riders from novice to experienced. There was also one guy with a fair amount of road racing experience.

They used the MOST (Motorcycle Operator Skill Test) which used electronically timed signals to indicate quick lane changes and stopping. The test also has turns that must be negotiated within boundaries. (There's an ALMOST, too, BTW...

What they found out: The road racer could ride significantly better legally intoxicated than all the others could when sober. The MSF then decided not to release the results...
__________________




meaningless what would have meaning is the numbers that would relate to how each riders performance changed as he got hammered.
 
What they found out: The road racer could ride significantly better legally intoxicated than all the others could when sober. The MSF then decided not to release the results

Ok, and what happens when you put the average sober motorcyle rider up against the average drunk motorcycle rider? You gonna tell me drunk bike riders drive better than sober ones?

Would you guys feel comfortable with drunk shooters at the pistol range? I mean, as long as they arent flagging the line or shooting at other people, they should be allowed to shoot right?
 
Don't wanna drink, don't. If you do, conduct yourself responsibly. Alcohol consumption and responsible behavior are not mutually exclusive.
Prove me wrong.

Biker
 
Either way, I still think the cops in the original article would accomplish a lot more by checking people as they left the bar and informing them that they are over the limit and need to take a cab who they arranged to work that bar tonight. At least then, they are performing a service and helping people rather than playing gotcha and handing out fines.
 
meaningless what would have meaning is the numbers that would relate to how each riders performance changed as he got hammered.
It gave an example. Under the law the man who drove better hammered then the sober riders would be subject to the same punishment as someone who was actually impaired. Why should this be? The simple answer is it should no way be allowed for someone to be punished when he is not a danger. The rider mentioned could do any song and dance or any strait line an officer wanted, but if he blows over the limit he is subject to the same punishment as someone who is weaving in and out of the lanes almost forcing people off the road. And that my friends is assinine.

Ok, and what happens when you put the average sober motorcyle rider up against the average drunk motorcycle rider? You gonna tell me drunk bike riders drive better than sober ones?
I don't believe it was said the rider used as an example drove better. What was said was he drove better then the others did sober which we can assume means pretty damn well and compotent, or at the very least more saftly then the others. So you have a hammered rider at the very least riding more compotently and safer then others within the group stone sober. Yet if stopped at a check point subject to the same punishment as someone who mows over a few garden nombs in an unplanned off road adventure. Why should this man driving saftly and compotent face the same punishment?

Would you guys feel comfortable with drunk shooters at the pistol range?
Drunk as in impaired? No not at all. But would I trust them any less then anyone else at the range handeling their firearms in an unsafe manner? Nope. Unsafe is unsafe and I don't care if its because they lack skill or because they are hammered and falling over. Now if you mean drunk as in over the legal limit? Well it depends is he impaired? If he isn't impaired then I could care less if hes been drinking rootbeer or something else. I judge shooters at the range by their skills and don't carry a portable breathalizer with me.

At least then, they are performing a service and helping people rather than playing gotcha and handing out fines
Thats because you expect and assume these were police/peace officers, not law enforcment agents.
 
Quote:
Travelling is a right. Operating a motor vehicle on public roads is a priviledge.

...but being forced to pay for public roads you don't have a right to drive on is just fine...

Would you argue that taxpayers should have an absolute right to use anything and everything funded with tax money?

Should hunting and fishing be unlicensed and unregulated because game managment is funded in part by taxpayers? No. Hunting and fishing make use of shared resources and are necessarily a licensed priviledge so that the resource can be used efficiently and safely.

Should boating on a reservoir created with tax dollars be unlicensed and unregulated because the dam and ungoing maintenance were funded with tax dollars?

Should citizens have a right to take tanks and war planes out for a spin because they paid for them with tax dollars?

Paying for a publicly shared resource does not imply a right to use that resource.

Michael Courtney
 
Would you argue that taxpayers should have an absolute right to use anything and everything funded with tax money?

Yes, apart from your rhetorical trick of using the word "absolute." That's a cheap ploy.:)

Should hunting and fishing be unlicensed and unregulated because game managment is funded in part by taxpayers? No. Hunting and fishing make use of shared resources and are necessarily a licensed priviledge so that the resource can be used efficiently and safely.

Actually, hunting and fishing licenses are taxes to shift the costs of hunting and fishing specifically, to hunters and fishermen. Our DFG does a lot that does not support hunting or fishing directly, so I have no problem with either requiring licenses that charge those who use resources in a certain way for their use, or for general tax funding of DFG activities and personnel, nature preserves, pollution control, etc. that are not only there for hunters or fishermen. We all get to enjoy the "use" of DFG in California, if we benefit from having unpolluted waterways, controlled vermin infestations, etc.

Should boating on a reservoir created with tax dollars be unlicensed and unregulated because the dam and ungoing maintenance were funded with tax dollars?

We don't need licenses to use boats here, and no one said that the use of a shared resource can or should be unregulated. You've tried to turn a brief statement about the right to use something that you've been forced to pay for into a statement that such use can occur with no regulation whatsoever. These are entirely different points.

Should citizens have a right to take tanks and war planes out for a spin because they paid for them with tax dollars?

In the way that you say it, no, but there's a damn good argument for more of a trained citizen militia force rather than simply an enormous bureaucracy that often operates with little scrutiny at great expense to the taxpayer.

Paying for a publicly shared resource does not imply a right to use that resource.

Then what justification in the world can you use for forcing anyone to pay taxes?

"Using" the military, for example, means living under its protection. Regardless of military boondoggles, defense contractor kickbacks, etc., that sort of "use" has no relation to the "use" of a tax-funded, public road, which is simply the use of the public road.
 
Actually, hunting and fishing licenses are taxes to shift the costs of hunting and fishing specifically, to hunters and fishermen.

And a lot of road costs are born by fees and taxes related to use rather than taxes on the people in general. Some of the money for the roads does come from non-specific taxes, just as some of the money for wildlife management comes from non-specific taxes.

Just as wildlife management benefits the public as a whole (not just hunters and fishers), maintaining the transportation infrastructure benefits the people as a whole (not just drivers).

We don't need licenses to use boats here, and no one said that the use of a shared resource can or should be unregulated. You've tried to turn a brief statement about the right to use something that you've been forced to pay for into a statement that such use can occur with no regulation whatsoever. These are entirely different points.

Surely you mean that certain (smaller, recreational) boats don't require operator's licenses. Most commercial boats do require operator's licenses, and even most smaller recreational boats do require registration. And law enforcement authorities can and do perform "DUI" type of checks on commercial operators.

Most RKBA advocates argue that any regulation of guns infringes on the 2nd amendment. Most "sensible" gun control advocates assert that gun rights should be regulated just as free speech rights, etc.

In the way that you say it, no, but there's a damn good argument for more of a trained citizen militia force rather than simply an enormous bureaucracy that often operates with little scrutiny at great expense to the taxpayer.

I agree. But in either case, access to the heavy weaponry would still not be available to any and every citizen.

Then what justification in the world can you use for forcing anyone to pay taxes?

The things paid for by general taxes should benefit the majority of tax payers. Roads benefit most taxpayers even without every taxpayer being able to operate a motor vehicle.

"Using" the military, for example, means living under its protection. Regardless of military boondoggles, defense contractor kickbacks, etc., that sort of "use" has no relation to the "use" of a tax-funded, public road, which is simply the use of the public road.

"Using" the roads can mean being able to ride a bus or hire a cab driven on those roads. It means buying milk and bread transported over those roads. It means living in an economy that relies on the transportation infrastructure.

Michael Courtney
 
And a lot of road costs are born by fees and taxes related to use rather than taxes on the people in general. Some of the money for the roads does come from non-specific taxes
What "fees and taxes" related to use? Where do you think a good chunk of federal highway funds comes from? Federal coffers, it sure doesn't come from tolls. Now perhaps if you mean packways turnpikes and bridges maybe, but roads in general? Nope.

Most RKBA advocates argue that any regulation of guns infringes on the 2nd amendment. Most "sensible" gun control advocates assert that gun rights should be regulated just as free speech rights, etc.
And just what is your definition of a "sensible" gun control advocate? :scrutiny: The only regulation should be you can't go out and shoot someone without a damn good reason, plain and simple. This also goes with the thinking that if you are a violent enough felon you can't be trusted with a gun you shouldn't be on the streets anyway.

I agree. But in either case, access to the heavy weaponry would still not be available to any and every citizen
Ah yes, but it should be.
 
This will just give rise to the DD, no not Designated Driver, but Designated Drunk. Right at closing, a few sober patrons or bar employees stumble out the parking lot acting like they are three sheets to the wind. They finally pour themselves into their cars and take off. The cops take off in hot pursuit. While the cops are in pursuit of the DDs, the real drunks get in their cars and drive away. By the time the cops realize they've been had, it will be too late.
 
true

Don't wanna drink, don't. If you do, conduct yourself responsibly. Alcohol consumption and responsible behavior are not mutually exclusive.


i was proof i was drunk for about a decade didn't drive
 
this

"This will just give rise to the DD, no not Designated Driver, but Designated Drunk. Right at closing, a few sober patrons or bar employees stumble out the parking lot acting like they are three sheets to the wind. They finally pour themselves into their cars and take off. The cops take off in hot pursuit. While the cops are in pursuit of the DDs, the real drunks get in their cars and drive away. By the time the cops realize they've been had, it will be too late."


was a bar joke when you were in diapers
 
Bring back public punishment

Stockade for first time offenders...
Public whipping for 2nd time offenders...
The hangman's noose for those who kill while they are drunk
 
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