Something that bugs me about CHL's & Media

[bigalexe]

Ok maybe I have a different view in the idea of Certification and taking a class and what that should allow one to be able do. Also i was not in the original post discussing the Constitutional right to carry a gun, if I wanted to post about that it would be a thread titled "Sign Here to Repeal the 1934 NFA and 1986 Full-Auto Ban."

When I look at someone as having "taken a class," I consider my course of study in college. Having 1 semester of drafting does not make me a drafter, it introduces me to the fundamentals, there is much more experience required to gain an NCA Accredited degree in Drafting than simply taking a course. A business would not also hire me as a draftsman with only a semester of training.

What i was originally posting is come from the same thought process. While its possible to learn fundamentals of a skill and gain some minimal proficiency in say 24 hours of concentrated instruction and practice. That isn't really enough training to make you ready to go out into the world and practice it.

Anyway that's where I was coming from, I'm not trying to upset people. Also the reason I make a big deal about female+equalizer statements is that I am a small male individual. It may be a personal issue but when I hear those statements I consider that they are implying that because I am male, then therefore I am big and strong which is not the case.

 

[TimM]

Tim, I'd like to just say that this is also the way that people get exposed to different perspectives. He didnt post maliciously, he was annoyed and expressed his opinions. THat is also his first amendment right....but then he gets different responses and if things stay civil, people can learn new ways of viewing things.

Though it may also seem like there was malice in my response, there was not. It just really surprised me that someone (especially on a gun forum) would object, for any reason, to a person having the right to defend themselves and exercise their 2A rights. It is a God and constitutionally given right to be able to defend yourself. It is a right, not a privilege.

 

[bigfatdave]

Anyway that's where I was coming from, I'm not trying to upset people. Also the reason I make a big deal about female+equalizer statements is that I am a small male individual. It may be a personal issue but when I hear those statements I consider that they are implying that because I am male, then therefore I am big and strong which is not the case.

You aren't alone there ... I may be big and strong, but I'm also a fat guy with a gimp knee and an obvious limp. A legally concealed handgun and some proficiency with it make me worry a lot less about being a victim of a crime of opportunity, much as I imagine it does for a female shooter.
You are right about women not being the only ones who might want an "equalizer".

As far as the CC permit training, it doesn't matter how minimal (or even nonexistent) it is, because it is the responsibility of the citizen to be knowledgeable about the laws and proficient with their SD tools. The training may be mandated, but even the best training can be ignored by someone intending to abuse their rights.

 

[Trebor]

Originally Posted by bigalexe
So you would rather we let everyone carry freely because that is their right than we do the best we can to sure they can competently use that weapon?

Dr Fresh:
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I agree with Dr Fresh. Everyone has the right to self defense and there shouldn't be any government required training or minimum compentency standard you have to demonstrate before you buy or carry a gun. The caveat is, of course, that you are still always responsible for your actions.

Remember that when the government can set the standards, there is nothing to keep the government from setting the standards so high that most people won't qualify. Look at how "Literacy tests" or "Poll taxes" were used to keep blacks from voting and you'll see how minimum standards can be used against gun owners.

I believe this even though I am a NRA instructor and I actively teach the NRA class needed to apply for a Michigan Concealed Pistol License. I draw my students from the Detroit area and suburbs and the Lansing area.

 

[Mxracer239y]

I feel somewhat like the black sheep. At 20 years old I had never fired a gun. I also had a CHL.

Why? I knew I supported the cause. I also knew I would be obtaining a firearm and becoming proficient with it in the upcoming months. It meant I had passed the background checks. It 'qualified' me to purchase a firearm private sale. My CHL showed the seller that I was not a felon, etc. I wanted to carry.

I was NOT a danger to society. I did buy a gun, learn to use it, and carry it. Nobody got hurt and my rights were exercised.

Why take that option away?

 

[stickhauler]

Huh?

I feel somewhat like the black sheep. At 20 years old I had never fired a gun. I also had a CHL.

Obviously you live in some state that allows carry licenses at an age under 21. I was under the impression that possession of a handgun was limited to those older then 21 on a Federal basis.

Either way, you did what most (well, most folks I know personally anyway) feel is what is the proper method to prepare to carry a weapon for self defense. You sought out the training to assure you knew how to operate a firearm safely and made sure you continued to add to your knowledge base to make you more capable of carrying and using a weapon for your defense. I have no problem with you, when legally able, to carry a firearm for your defense.

However, there are lots of people who take a single course to qualify to carry, and never bother to continue to learn, never (or rarely) practice with a firearm. Shooting skills tend to diminish if you don't regularly actually fire a weapon. Check out other shooters when you go to the range to practice, if your experience is anything like mine, you'll see at least one or two that look like they have no idea what the hell they are doing, yet if you talk to them they'll tell you they carry regularly.

 

[22-rimfire]

There are a few states that allow licensed concealed carry between 18 and 21. At one time, I did not believe that until I looked it up. You can own a handgun in most states if you are 18; you just can't buy said handgun from a FFL dealer.

Competency with a handgun requires practice. Competency with a rifle at a minimal level requires little practice other than you are familiar with the operation of the firearm.

 

[JWJacobVT]

I know we have a many Ladies signing up for the local Women on Target handgun courses. Some ladies only wish to learn to shoot the 22LR they own for pest control, others started with the 22 and then tried many other makes,models and calibers during the end of course free shoot (9mm, 38, 357, 45, etc). Remember Women on Target like the NRA Basic pistol course are just that, BASIC. You gotta start somewhere. None of these or other classes are required for cc here in Vermont, but it seems that most folks are getting training from friends, family, NRA before carrying / using. Just my two cents.

 

[rbernie]

I agree with Dr Fresh. Everyone has the right to self defense and there shouldn't be any government required training or minimum compentency standard you have to demonstrate before you buy or carry a gun. The caveat is, of course, that you are still always responsible for your actions.

Correct.

It just really surprised me that someone (especially on a gun forum) would object, for any reason, to a person having the right to defend themselves and exercise their 2A rights. It is a God and constitutionally given right to be able to defend yourself. It is a right, not a privilege.

Actually we see this a lot here. Some folk attribute this sort of attitude to snobbery or elitism, but I don't think that's always true (and certainly is not, in this case).

I do think that folk are being raised to expect life's problems to be dealt with via new restrictions instead of via critical thought. And that's OK, because that problem is fixable, via threads like this.

 

[Glasstream15]

I am a87 YO, 200 pound male. However, due to some medications for heart issues, 25 or 30 pounds of that is pure fat. Bad back, bad hips, bad knees and nerve issues that have reduced my physical strength to somewhat less than many women I know. In other words, my 110 pound, 20 YO grandaughter could kick my butt.

40 years ago i did a lot of rifle shooting, both target and some hunting. I was VERY good. But it had been 30 years since I held a firearm of any type until I decided to get a handgun for defense. I ended up with a Ruger P90, .45 ACP for my first handgun. Wow, .45 for the first gun. Well I have 3 others now, 2 Kel-tecs and a Glock and the Ruger is BY FAR the easiest to shoot and shoot accurately.

I took the class, taught by the SJSO instructer, and we fired 20 rounds at the outdoor FOP range, both to be sure we could actually use the gun we had and to make sure we could put 20 somewhere on the paper at 7 yards.

I got my permit and I spend as much time as I can at the FOP range firing all 4 of my handguns and my 18 1/2 inch shotgun. Sort of restricted by the price of ammo, I am retired and we live on fixed incomes. Depending on where I'm going and what I'm wearing all 4 hanguns take turns as carry weapons. But the Ruger is so big and heavy that the standard Florida retiree uniform of shorts and t-shirt don't allow it to be concealed except in the occasional cold snap. But the Ruger is the one that stays on the bedside table.

These handguns, along with my CWL, are an "Equalizer" But even with the ability to carry, which I do, we just avoid most dangerous places. Wally Werld and mall parking lots at night, certain areas of town and especially Jacksonville, day and night. And if I know we have to drive thru some of these areas the Ruger rides between the seats of my Grand Marquis.

All of this ramble is to say, I have the right to carry and I have a percieved need to defend myself and my Admiral and I have received, and continue to receive, training in doing so in the safest manner possible.

 

[9MMare]

Though it may also seem like there was malice in my response, there was not. It just really surprised me that someone (especially on a gun forum) would object, for any reason, to a person having the right to defend themselves and exercise their 2A rights. .

Nah, I didnt think you were being malicious.

 

[bigfatdave]

However, there are lots of people who take a single course to qualify to carry, and never bother to continue to learn, never (or rarely) practice with a firearm.

And it is not the state's problem to regulate citizen's responsibility.
The answer is personal responsibility, not more restrictions. Maybe I'm uncompromising on that point, and perhaps it is an unpopular stance to take ... but more legislation makes subjects, while personal responsibility and respect for civil rights makes citizens.

 

[benEzra]

Personally I probably wouldn't apply for CHL until I had owned a handgun for at least 6 months and felt competent with it to an extent that taking a class would be more an educational experience in threat assessment and proper target engagement than basic firearm safety, and operation.

If you get the instruction up front (and might as well get the license while you're at it), your 6 months of practice may be more productive.