Something to Consider

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jagans

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Hi All,

I am new to this site, but not to guns. I have been on a 45 year hiatus from using firearms, basically since I was discharged (Honorably, of course) from the Military in 1968. Yes, I am a Vietnam Veteran. My knowledge about handguns, shotguns, and rifles came primarily from my father who is a retired police officer with 30 years of service in law enforcement. He was also an avid hunter, and chalked up 97 whitetail kills with his 300 Savage Model 99 rifle. All deer were taken with the standard peep sight. He considered scopes as unfair to the game, giving the hunter an unfair advantage. I agree with him. I shot expert in the military with the M-16, placing 29 of thirty in the black at 100 yards.

Just so you know how safety conscious my father was, he made both my brother and I carry empty shotguns in the field when we were young until he thought that we were mature and safe enough to carry a loaded weapon. When we approached a fence line, we had to break the weapon, set it through the fence, go down stock to cross the fence, pick up the weapon, move away from the fence and close the action while keeping the barrel down range. As a kid I thought all of this was a bit much. Now, as a 64 year old man, I wonder why all young aspiring marksman are not required to do what I did.

I have watched several videos on U-Tube, and I cannot beleive that more young people do not end up shooting themselves due to carelessness.

OK Where am I going with all of this?

1. I completely agree with those of you that think a man has every right to arm himself against any threat, foreign and domestic.

2. It is my opinion that any individual that wants to own a pistol should first have to own and properly operate a rifle safely. A person who has had little to no training in the use of a handgun, and buys this as his first firearm is an accident looking for a place to happen.

What I am throwing out here is, Why cant common sense be applied to the act of acquiring and learning to use firearms? I am currently tuning up a Marlin Model 60 with which I will attempt to pass on to my grandson the respect for safety and sense of fair play that my father instilled in me.

My Problem is, how many other kids get the same consideration?
 
Well jagans, first of all, WELCOME TO THR.

I personally do not agree with your belief about the rifle before pistol for one simple reason, the very first firearm that was in my hand, as well as ALL my children, was an old Ruger .22 pistol (The one that looks like a Luger). I was just out of diapers and just barely walking well! Obviously I was raised with firearms. I was raised with safety first shot second and CLEAN THE DAMN THING after :)

As far as your scope preference, that is up to each individual. Some just don't see very well anymore and need them (that is my excuse and I am sticking to it!) :) Seriously, I do not see well enough for irons or even a good williams peep anymore so I need scopes.

You are correct about a lot of the stupidity on You-Tube and the common sense level of kids today is definitely in the negatives for a LOT of kids. But that is a direct reflection on the parenting of kids today as well. I raised mine (and now my SURPRISE 6 year old) with a very healthy respect for firearms and a love for the outdoors. Most kids today get 80% of their "education" from T.V. or the Internet or X-Box and think that is the way real life is because their parents don't have time for them to actually teach them right from wrong.
 
I don't know about the rifle before handgun thing, but I totally am with you on gun safety. I've seen so many careless people holding guns in the last 25 or so years i've been hunting. It amazes me that more people aren't shot.
 
jagans said:
Hi All,

I am new to this site, but not to guns. I have been on a 45 year hiatus from using firearms, basically since I was discharged (Honorably, of course) from the Military in 1968. Yes, I am a Vietnam Veteran. My knowledge about handguns, shotguns, and rifles came primarily from my father who is a retired police officer with 30 years of service in law enforcement. He was also an avid hunter, and chalked up 97 whitetail kills with his 300 Savage Model 99 rifle. All deer were taken with the standard peep sight. He considered scopes as unfair to the game, giving the hunter an unfair advantage. I agree with him. I shot expert in the military with the M-16, placing 29 of thirty in the black at 100 yards.

Just so you know how safety conscious my father was, he made both my brother and I carry empty shotguns in the field when we were young until he thought that we were mature and safe enough to carry a loaded weapon. When we approached a fence line, we had to break the weapon, set it through the fence, go down stock to cross the fence, pick up the weapon, move away from the fence and close the action while keeping the barrel down range. As a kid I thought all of this was a bit much. Now, as a 64 year old man, I wonder why all young aspiring marksman are not required to do what I did.

I have watched several videos on U-Tube, and I cannot beleive that more young people do not end up shooting themselves due to carelessness.

OK Where am I going with all of this?

1. I completely agree with those of you that think a man has every right to arm himself against any threat, foreign and domestic.

2. It is my opinion that any individual that wants to own a pistol should first have to own and properly operate a rifle safely. A person who has had little to no training in the use of a handgun, and buys this as his first firearm is an accident looking for a place to happen.

What I am throwing out here is, Why cant common sense be applied to the act of acquiring and learning to use firearms? I am currently tuning up a Marlin Model 60 with which I will attempt to pass on to my grandson the respect for safety and sense of fair play that my father instilled in me.

My Problem is, how many other kids get the same consideration?
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Good thoughts but I don't see anywhere where you state how the people in the Youtube have been unsafe with their handling of their firearms. I also don't see your thoughts on why you think people should start with a rifle and then move on to a pistol. Good overall post but I'd like to see more in terms of understanding why you think so.
 
I disagree with the OP. Safe gun handling practices are safe gun handling practices, period. The type of firearm they are learned on is not all that important.

Furthermore, as someone who did not start shooting a rifle until roughly 3-4 years after starting on a .22LR revolver I disagree on general principle.
 
I believe it is the teachers responsibility to teach safety. and I am certain that no one should ever have to go through any course or class especially regulated by government to purchase or own a firearm of any kind.
 
I would like to see gun safety taught in schools. I think it would save a lot of lives. I've seen ND's happen and have several friends who have seen them or almost been killed by them. It can never be taken seriously enough. I knew a guy when I was younger that pointed a gun at a persons chest and pulled the trigger thinking that since he had taken the magazine out it must be unloaded. It wasn't. No common sense on top of total ignorance of the workings of handguns.
 
I also had a friend who was almost shot by an "unloaded' 7mm mag. someone was cleaning in the apt. downstairs from him.
 
black timber said:
I also had a friend who was almost shot by an "unloaded' 7mm mag. someone was cleaning in the apt. downstairs from him.
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Wow that would be highly unpleasant. Just hanging out, eating a pop tart, all of a sudden BANG 7mm mag shots through your floor.
 
gun safety is an absolute must. it is one of the most important things that must be ingrained in anyones brain who is to have them. but it is not the governments place or responsibility to enforce it.. a school program would be great. but that is just another lazy loosening my way american wimper. as a true responsible american you should take it upon yourself to teach others who don't know. especially the young ones. safety is always a topic I touch on before I hunt with someone new. one thing I am sure of is that if all these lazy people that like to call themselves americans keep asking the government to do the basic things that are our responsibility then we will end up paying all of our wages in tax so they have the money to educate us the way they see fit. I for one shiver at the thought of the government teaching me or my children about guns. I just don't get it..
 
look at it this way. how many hours did you spend teaching your child to to P in the toilet ? or how much time did you spend teaching them to tie there shoes ? they aren't going to forfeit their lives or anyone elsses if they P their pants but you tought them not to.. would you expect the government to teach your kids this? but you want them to lift the burden of gun safety that takes your child's life to hand.?????
 
Just so you know how safety conscious my father was, he made both my brother and I carry empty shotguns in the field when we were young until he thought that we were mature and safe enough to carry a loaded weapon. When we approached a fence line, we had to break the weapon, set it through the fence, go down stock to cross the fence, pick up the weapon, move away from the fence and close the action while keeping the barrel down range. As a kid I thought all of this was a bit much. Now, as a 64 year old man, I wonder why all young aspiring marksman are not required to do what I did.
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Jagans, do you think you could break this down for me again? I'm not sure I understood all of that. I'm young but I'm interested in raising kids someday, distinctly different from how my parents raised me, and I'm curious about how other people have traditionally instilled gun discipline and safety in their kids.

I myself happen to be one of those Xbox kids, but I've always had a great love of fire-arms and the outdoors. My first introduction to guns was a large-bore bolt action rifle, which wasn't anything quite like I expected. I remember feeling the heavy weight of the gun, running my fingers over the cold black steel, and one day finally taking it out to the range immediately gave me a real appreciation for the grave seriousness and purpose of what it was. I remember that when showing it to my friends, however, they exhibited perfect carelessness and recklessness with such an instrument of death; not checking to see if it was loaded, waving it around, pulling the trigger, etc. The very sight of it baffled me.

I think that what the OP was getting at with introductions to rifles is that a rifle is much larger and can't exactly be wielded around so easily, while on the other hand anyone can get a handgun and a carry license with relative ease. They also might tend to be "left around" more often, and many people seem to forget that removing the magazine doesn't mean the weapon is unloaded. With a bolt rifle you have to check the action manually each time. People that don't know how to properly appreciate and safely carry weapons shouldn't, and an introduction to a rifle is something more of a 'baby step' or 'guns for dummies'. At least I think that's what he meant; I'd be inclined to agree with him on that.

After all, just because you all had wise parents doesn't mean everyone else does.
 
coug said:
gun safety is an absolute must. it is one of the most important things that must be ingrained in anyones brain who is to have them. but it is not the governments place or responsibility to enforce it.. a school program would be great. but that is just another lazy loosening my way american wimper. as a true responsible american you should take it upon yourself to teach others who don't know. especially the young ones. safety is always a topic I touch on before I hunt with someone new. one thing I am sure of is that if all these lazy people that like to call themselves americans keep asking the government to do the basic things that are our responsibility then we will end up paying all of our wages in tax so they have the money to educate us the way they see fit. I for one shiver at the thought of the government teaching me or my children about guns. I just don't get it..
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"safety is always a topic I touch on before I hunt with someone new."
+1

I've been hunting with new people who were suppose to be old school, been around this forever etc. and had them sweep me with loaded weapons several times in a day. It was uncomfortable since I was invited to their exclusive waterfowling land and was the only outsider. I didn't hunt with them again and am still mad at myself for not saying something.
 
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At least as a kid you were exposed to firearms. My life was different by 180 degrees, my father had no use for firearms. I was exposed to firearms as a kid when I visited relatives in the country but that was it. My first real gun experience came when I was 19. Short but my first. I got training in the service in 69, and I too am a Viet Nam veteran.

Wasn't till I got out of the service that I started hunting. This was with a shotgun. My second gun was a S&W model 28. Wasn't until I reached my late 20's that I got my first centerfire rifle, I still have that one.

You're right about safe handling. The first time I went hunting with a friend he made me carry the shotgun unloaded. When we saw game he would let me have a shell. This continued till I proved myself gun worthy.
 
coug said:
look at it this way. how many hours did you spend teaching your child to to P in the toilet ? or how much time did you spend teaching them to tie there shoes ? they aren't going to forfeit their lives or anyone elsses if they P their pants but you tought them not to.. would you expect the government to teach your kids this? but you want them to lift the burden of gun safety that takes your child's life to hand.?????
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I know what you're saying and agree to an extent, but the reason I said I think it should be taught in schools (public or private) is that not all parents know about guns or want their kids to and I don't think it should be an option in our society to learn about them or not. I think it should be out in the open and not left to the discretion of the parents. I'm not saying there should be any test to buy a gun or anything crazy like that, but a basic course in school would help I think.
 
black timber said:
I know what you're saying and agree to an extent, but the reason I said I think it should be taught in schools (public or private) is that not all parents know about guns or want their kids to and I don't think it should be an option in our society to learn about them or not. I think it should be out in the open and not left to the discretion of the parents. I'm not saying there should be any test to buy a gun or anything crazy like that, but a basic course in school would help I think.
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like at an early age too
 
I sort of agree ...

In Calif, we a required to pass a safety exam and get a certificate before we can buy a hand gun. I used to get upset about this, then I thought about it. If you can demonstrate safety, you should be allowed to own. If not, you should not. How you acquire those skills is up to you. Formal course or home schooling - doesn't matter - safety does!

As far as You Tube - well that's a whole nuther can of worms. There's crazies on there doing stuff that dangerous with cars, planes, boats, motorcycles and firearms. The gun nutz aren't much different than the go-faster loonies. I race and support the right to race. But the stuff I see on you tube is leading to Social Darwinism. There's some folks who should not be allowed to breed :eek:
 
I'm also in the camp that doesn't follow the "rifle before pistol" rationale. Safety is safety, irrespective of the firearm being employed. In addition to all of the pertinent gun safety rules being taught to a beginning young shooter, in the case of my children, I did for them what my father did for me sixty or so years ago while in the initial learning phase of being taught safe gun handling protocol: I shot a watermelon with a 12 gauge shotgun at close range. The exploding melon left an impression on me that has stayed with me all of my life and I'm sure my kids will always remember the damage a firearm can wreak on another human being when safe gun handling is ignored.

A hearty welcome to The High Road, jagans! Your thought-provoking post was much appreciated.
 
I myself happen to be one of those Xbox kids, but I've always had a great love of fire-arms and the outdoors. My first introduction to guns was a large-bore bolt action rifle, which wasn't anything quite like I expected. I remember feeling the heavy weight of the gun, running my fingers over the cold black steel, and one day finally taking it out to the range immediately gave me a real appreciation for the grave seriousness and purpose of what it was. I remember that when showing it to my friends, however, they exhibited perfect carelessness and recklessness with such an instrument of death; not checking to see if it was loaded, waving it around, pulling the trigger, etc. The very sight of it baffled me.
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Ok, noone else is going to pick this out so I will. My question is this, Just why in the hell were your "friends" in your home "playing" with your fathers rifle in the first place?
The #1 rule in my house has been and always will be, "You touch one of my firearms without me being right there or have my permission for that instance and you will regret it in a most severe manner!" My 6 year old knows better, my grown kids STILL would not even OFFER to touch one of "Daddy's Guns" without my permission to this day and hell the oldest is almost 32!
 
yes you are 100% on that thought freedom fighter. my kids and my wife don't touch unless I am there. that is rule #1 . my neighbors grandson came out with him this year to sight in his 22-250 when he got it out of the truck he pointed it right at grandpaw as he walked over to the bench he pointed it at me while handing it to me once in my hands I felt the safety !!! it was off I then pulled the bolt open and yep!!! a live round came out. I sat the rifle down and got very serious with both of them about what just happened. we had a 20 minute safety class/neighborly but chewing before we got started. I always explain to young shooters what I expect and why even if they grew up around guns. #2 if you are around guns long enough something will go wrong. I have had a couple of rifles go off on me while closing the bolt. you absolutely have to teach them to be always aware of the muzzle direction. #3 as soon as you pick one up check the chamber and then make double sure the safety is on. if you teach and drill these things into a young shooters head it will become a second nature.
 
What I am throwing out here is, Why cant common sense be applied to the act of acquiring and learning to use firearms?
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Welcome to The High Road. You'll like it here.

Common sense can and should be applied to getting and learning to use a firearm. However, it should not be required by law. To my eyes, the words in the Second Amendment don't allow laws like that.

I also came back to shooting after years away from guns. I was amazed at how much my Dad taught me as a child came back when I picked up the 10/22 my wife got for my 35th birthday.
 
I am sorry that I was unclear in some aspects of my post yesterday.

Where did I mention Law? I personally think that we have too many laws, and the powers that be are trying to litigate us out of all our personal freedoms. This government is trying to protect us from our own stupidity, therefore upsetting Darwins "Survival of the Fittest" theory. For instance, if a person wants to ride his/her motorcycle without a helmet, why should the government tell him/her that they have to wear a helmet? If they are too stupid to wear one of their own volition, well so be it. Survival of the fittest is not just physical.

My opinion regarding rifle first should really have been long-gun first, be it shotgun or rifle, and the reasoning behind this is just as one of you stated. It is really easy to wave a handgun around in every which way, and with a long gun it takes more to bring it to bear. Those of you who like the handgun first approach, well, that's your opinion, and as far as I know, you still have a right to one. I guess my thinking is that if a person had to learn a long gun first, then a handgun, it would take more commitment to the general use of firearms. I think that most of you would agree that a person who is not committed at least to a marginal degree is dangerous. "A little knowledge is Dangerous" "He knows just enough to hurt himself" etc. etc.

Most Hunters I have met are very safety conscious, because they are committed, and probably because they have seen the results of what a firearm can do to an animal. They pass their safe habits down to their children and grandchildren, with the image of what their rounds did to their bagged game in the back of their minds.

I guess all of this leads me to another question.

What does a handgun do that you can not do better with a rifle, besides play John Wayne, of course?
 
All deer were taken with the standard peep sight. He considered scopes as unfair to the game, giving the hunter an unfair advantage. I agree with him.
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I completely disagree. You intend to kill. It is not a game. Use a precision and adequately powerful tool.
 
All of my uncles and most of my male relatives were hunters. I started out at what now would be considered very young at 7. But it was safety first with every one of them. I have some very fond memories of going out alone by the age of 9-10 hunting Squirel (or as my uncle Chet called them "tree rats" with my Stevens bolt action single shot .22. Would love to have that little rifle back. Probably one of the safest starter rifles for youngsters ever made. Most accurate too imo.
 
this is a great site jagans. you will learn a lot of aspects of any certain topic. you sound educated about guns. you will here a lot of difrent takes. as for your latest question why a pistol over a long gun.. you have to use what you own. I started all 3 of my girls at 4 yrs with BB guns. they all shoot just about every type of gun you can imagine. even muzzle loaders. but none of them have shot a pistol. I don't use them much. but before they leave my care they will learn how to operate autos and revolvers both. but not all parents are long gun shooters.
 
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