Spanish Mauser questions

[MrDig]

I am Considering getting a pair of Spanish Mausers in .308 . The Purpose for getting them is to rebarrel them in .243, and build the rifles I want from the Bolts up. Please Do Not Comment on the fact that I am taking a Mil Surp Rifle and destroying it. I am buying these because the actions are 1/2 the price of other actions and will be less burden on my wallet.
The questions I need answered are:
1; Are these Large or Small ring Mausers?
2; Anybody out there ever do this and have some tips you can give me?

 

[rbernie]

1) probably small-ring, but it depends - could be either.
2) find a gunsmith who really likes you, because most gunsmiths will refuse to rebarrel a smallring Mauser in any hi-pressure chambering.

 

[Jim Watson]

This is nothing I have personal experience with, but from reading...

Most are small rings. Spain converted 1893 rifles to 1916 short rifles in 7x57, then converted a lot of the 1916s to 7.62mm. Later they converted some to 7.62mm FR7 with sights like the CETME auto rifles.
There is some debate as to whether they meant these to be 7.62 NATO (.308 Win) or 7.62 CETME which was originally a lighter load for the early versions of the CETME. I figure they were eventually loaded with real 7.62 NATO but then a Spanish PFC would not be in a good position to sue if his blew up.

Most folks are at least a little leery of using a '93 Mauser for the higher pressures of current cartridges like .308 (or .243.) Note that Brownells sells small ring barrels only for lower pressure cartridges. Not that a .250 Savage won't do nearly anything a .243 will.

Kimber raised money by converting a bunch of Swedish '96 small ring Mausers to .308, .243, and .22-250. But it is thought the Swedish steel and better quality control gave them a safety margin that Spanish products lack.

Turkish Mausers are another can of worms. They kept upgrading and ended up with lots of '93s remodelled to look like a '98 for 8x57 which is loaded a lot hotter in Europe than here.

Some are large rings. Spain went to '98 pattern Mausers in 8x57 at the advice of their friends, the Germans, in 1943. They converted a number of 1943 large ring Mausers to FR8 with sights like CETME. Spanish Mausers are a little rougher than German or Czech but I don't think there is much doubt about them handling .243, etc.

So it is largely a case of knowing what you are buying and knowing what your comfort zone is. Also a case of turning a sow's ear into a silk purse. Are you going to DIY or turn it over to a pro? If the latter, the cost of the action will be trivial vs the conversion cost.

 

[MrDig]

I will be doing a lot of the work myself. These are specicaly designated .308 NATO. I did find some 98 Yugo Mark X actions that might work well, This would mean barreling them and headspacing them and not having a ton of leftover parts from the original rifle.

 

[rbernie]

Jim hit the nail on the head in a far more eloquent fashion than I could have. The bolt shroud is the easiest way to pick out a small-ring from large, since some small-rings have been made with the safety lug and gas porting of the post-98 large ring Mausers but none were made with the gas-deflecting bolt shroud.

In the end, I'd be willing to rechamber a Berlin (DW/Loewe) or Swedish (Gustaf) produced small-ring but not one made in Oevido or anywhere else. The exception to that would be if you were rechambering to a cartridge that had a smaller head diameter than .473 (e.g. .223Win). In that case, there should be sufficient meat around the chamber to keep things safe.

I've never seen a re-chambered Mauser KaBOOM, but the one's that I've heard of have all been Spanish-made 1893 derivatives.

 

[Dale Taylor]

I have Mod 96 Swedish. Wonderful accurate 6.5x55 rifle. Wish I had another. [email protected]

 

[Jim K]

My advice is not to waste time or money working over those Spanish rifles. Almost all the Spanish rifles imported in .308 were the Model 1916, which is simply an updated Model 1893. Those rifles were designed for the 7x57 Mauser, which has a maximum working pressure in the 40k range. The Spanish intended those rifles to be used with the 7.62 CETME cartridge, identical dimensionally to the 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, but lightly loaded. Even the 7.62 NATO milspec is in the 50-52k pressure range. In addtion, Spanish made rifles tend to be soft, although those bought from Germany are much better.

But the maximum working pressure of the commercial .308 AND THE .243 is 60k, and .243 Winchester 80 grain factory ammunition has been found to exceed 67k. (.243 WSSM has a max pressure spec of 65k).

In other words, you will be firing much higher pressure loads than the old rifles were ever designed to take. They probably won't "blow up" the first shot, but you can expect to see, possibly within as few as two hundred rounds, battered bolt lugs and battered lug seats, with consequent excess headspace and serious problems.

If you keep the rifles for yourself, and handload to low pressure, you will be OK, just not realizing the full potential of the .243. But if you sell the rifles to anyone, and that person assumes (as he would have the right to) that commercial .243 ammo can be used, or that he can use equivalent or hotter handloads, you could find yourself in deep trouble when (not if) something bad happens and the rifle is ruined or someone injured.

Jim

 

[MrDig]

Thanks Guys I think I will lean towards getting some actions and Building from there. This seems a better option. Plus the guy selling the Spanish ones seemed a little confused when I talked with him. If I read him correctly the Actions are 1916's rechambered. Not the 98's made with .308 barrels. Apparently FR7's and 8's are more rare and are made from German 98 actions, did I get that right?

 

[Jim K]

When Spain adopted the CETME as their service rifle years back, they took some of their old rifles and reworked them for the 7.62mm CETME ammo to use as training rifles and as constabulary rifles. There were two versions, the FR7 (so called because it was converted from 7mm) made from the Model 1916, and the FR8 (converted from 8mm) made from the Model 1943 (the Spanish-made Mauser 98). The latter is better than the former for conversion work, but as I said, all Spanish made guns tend to be soft, and I would prefer better actions regardless of type.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Not to hijack the thread, but when somebody says:

"Even the 7.62 NATO milspec is in the 50-52k pressure range.
But the maximum working pressure of the commercial .308 is 60k"

I just wonder why the commercial loads are not just a heck of a lot faster than GI.

I usually conclude that there is still a lot of confusion between crusher pressures which were reported as psi for decades before the piezeoelectric transducer came in and SAAMI had to come up with the term CUP (Copper Unit of Pressure) to differentiate between two methods that give such different readings.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If the rifles are large ring mausers it's probably OK. If they're small ring mausers I wouldn't do it.

The large ring mausers have three locking lugs on the bolt. Small ring mausers have only two lugs.

"Three lugs good, two lugs back."

It might be a better idea simply to sell the spanish rifles and buy a VZ24 or something. No worries that way.