Spawned from recent thread... AK47 vs AR15 platform

[inSight-NEO]

As some of you may know (per a recent thread of mine), I may soon be in the market for an assault rifle. In my quest for such a rifle, I have been steered towards both the AR15 and the AK47, to name a few. Brand name aside, what are the main differences between these two? Positives? Negatives? How can one separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak?

Also, if anyone could recommend any current books and/or sites covering such rifles, in terms of features, differences, what to look for, etc., etc., etc., I would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[Mags]

I may soon be in the market for an assault rifle.

Maybe you should post this in the NFA forum.
C'mon man you have been a member since '08 you know how we all get out panties in a bunch over the term "assault rifle".

On topic: I have never fired an AK, probably because I fired the AR (actually an M16A2) first and loved it. Now I have 2 AR15s, had an AR10 (in the market for another), and am working on a 6.8 upper build and an A2 rifle build.

 

[Sam1911]

"Spawned from recent post?" How about "spawned from 300 recent posts?"

I believe you've reiterated the single most asked question on the entire internet.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=514751
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=515762
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=493241
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=500956
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=520114
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=452352
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=515720

There's seven recent threads touching on the question. Thousands more out there if you still can't make up your mind.

The basics...
AR-15: Direct Impingement gas operated rifle.
AK: Piston-driven gas operated rifle.
AR-15: Average 2 MOA accuracy with the capacity for much better.
AK: Average 3-4 MOA accuracy with the capacity for ... 2-3 MOA accuracy.
AR: VERY modular... the "lego" rifle. Build it however you want.
AK: Lots of aftermarket stuff available, but not as flexible.
AR: $700-$3000 +
AK: $350 - $900
AR: Somewhat fragile mags, but some good ones available.
AK: The toughest, most reliable mags ever... and almost every one works just as well as another.
AR: Pretty reliable -- not everyone believes it though.
AK: Very reliable -- everyone believes it, too
AR: Generally good ergonomics.
AK: You can probably learn to live with the ergonomics.
AR: Lots of caliber choices, but usually 5.56NATO.
AK: Usually 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm. Some available in 5.56 NATO
AR: Great sights, and easy to mount any scope for any mission.
AK: O.k.-ish sights if your eyes are good. Scopes that mount easily are eastern-bloc style and can be a bit funky. Alternatives can be had but they take work and/or compromises.

And so on. .... so VERY on.

You don't need a book. You need to look at a few at gun shops, or ask around to borrow a few shots with each, and then ask more specific questions (or do more specific SEARCHES) here to get the answers you're looking for.

In the end, they are both very capable combat carbines.

(Oh, and unless you are specifically buying a "select-fire" model that can shoot full-auto, the term "Assault Rifle" isn't technically correct.)

Good luck, and happy reading!

 

[Kwanger]

There is only one thing to do. Get both.

 

[mljdeckard]

Is it really necessary to choose only one?

The AR is much more modular, and honestly more suited for more people of different sizes to handle and shoot it easily. Go to brownells.com and order their free AR catalog. They are surprisingly easy to build.

I keep Russian guns around to be able to drag them through the sagebrush, throw them over the ATV handlebars and trail 50 miles, leave dirty and not feel guilty. I would look in the pawn shops for a used one.

 

[Zerodefect]

Ak's had a place in my heart when they costed half of what a cheap Ar goes for. Now the good ones have gone up in price. I can build a real good Ar for the cost of an Ak. Isn't the point of the Ak to be a cheap reliable weapon?

IMO, the Ar outperforms the Ak in every catagory. Has ambi controls and better ergos. And that's comparing the Ak to an obsolete standard relic Ar style. Modern Reese Ar's and SPR's are a whole level above any Ak I've ever shot.

Nothing wrong with haveing fun with the Ak, but for serious matters I won't touch it.



Ps: A registered Ar15 Assault Rifle goes for more than $15,000 last time I checked. Did you mean plain old Ar15 instead?

 

[sarduy]

Also, if anyone could recommend any current books and/or sites covering such rifles, in terms of features, differences, what to look for, etc., etc., etc., I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN-T_zeTdTM

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aA67Wi7TM&feature=channel

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcWCkmocbLI&feature=channel

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hLh4J9ihy4&feature=channel

Part 5 Final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9LDvikIEs&feature=channel

 

[RP88]

wet panties aside, we know what he meant already. He's obviously looking for a commercial semi-autp model, sheesh. If the lack of one part changes what we call it, then fine.

Anyways, ARs are pretty much known for quality. Most brands (except Vulcan/Hesse and the surplus part Century ARs) make a very good gun. The problem there is: how good or very good do you want it? there are a multitude of features, setups, accessories, styles of machining, etc. that separate the $650 'good' AR from the $900 nice AR from the $1200 great AR from the $3000 'holy crap' AR.

The AK, however, it is what it is. It works, its reasonably accurate for what it was made for, and there are only a few worthwhile things you can do to it. Pretty much every AK out there works. the only thing to really do to it is put a nice optic or scope on it to work over the crappy irons, and maybe dress it up with nicer furniture, put a nice compensator on it, and replace the stock triggers on some of them with slightly nicer triggers.

 

[Tirod]

Much of the difference can be personal preference. There are two specific features on the AR that the AK doesn't have, and seem to be the make or break for actual use: the bolt hold open, and the safety.

With the bolt hold open, you can load the AR with no extra force to insert a magazine, and chamber a round without moving your hand from the grip. The safety on the AR stays ON during the task, until it is taken off to make a shot.

It seems that most pro LEO and military managers choose weapons with those features more times than not.

There are a lot of exciting discussions about the AR vs AK, some actually stick to facts and not legends or superstition. If they include a tactical appreciation of why the bolt hold open and safety on the AR are superior in use, then it's informative.

 

[inSight-NEO]

C'mon man you have been a member since '08 you know how we all get out panties in a bunch over the term "assault rifle".

My apologies. I frankly do not like the term myself. But, unfortunately, it is the only "generic" term available as applied to such a weapon. As mentioned in one of my previous threads, I prefer the term "special purpose." But, had I used this term, some here would probably have had no idea what I was talking about.

"Spawned from recent post?" How about "spawned from 300 recent posts?"

By "spawned from a recent post/thread" I was referring to my very own recent thread about various SIG rifles. Yes, I am a noob when it comes to rifles. Shotguns and handguns? I can speak all day about them. But, rifles? No way.

I figure that my request for such information is no more redundant than, say, the 50-60% (or more) of various topics/questions I generally see here...including almost any other weapon related forum I can think of.

I did not realize I was opening the proverbial Pandora's box by starting this thread. Frankly, I almost regret having asked anything at all. Thanks for the black eye.

Frankly, if I wanted to spend all of my time doing web searches for such topics, all while trying to distinguish good advice from bad, I would have done so. But....I don't have such time on my hands. So, I come here for direct answers to direct questions....as current, and hopefully accurate, as I can get. Otherwise, I would have no use for such forums.

 

[Art Eatman]

Unless I have some clue about the intended use, I don't see any difference between them. You stuff ammo in, pull the trigger, and you hear a loud noise and a bullet hits something. They both do that.

And so?

 

[kenno]

Get a Galil it uses AR mags
Or buy an ARK 62

 

[Sam1911]

My apologies. I frankly do not like the term myself. But, unfortunately, it is the only "generic" term available as applied to such a weapon.

"Military Style Autoloader"
"Semi-Auto Carbine"
etc.

Unfortunately "Assault Rifle" has such a pejorative taint that we do try to avoid it unless speaking directly to "true" assault rifles.

I wouldn't use "special purpose" simply because they aren't really very "special." They do almost everything you could want a rifle to do in a sort of generic "o.k." way. If you build one as a heavy long-range varmint rifle, or build one as a suppressed .300 Whisper, or something truly limited in utility, I'd call that "special purpose" but a rifle that is easy to carry, easy to shoot, has minimal recoil, and which has acceptable accuracy and other characteristics for everything from self-defense, close-range hunting, target plinking, teaching new shooters, and going into combat -- well, I'd describe that as a "general purpose" rifle.

By "spawned from a recent post/thread" I was referring to my very own recent thread about various SIG rifles. I could not care less about the other, say, 299 posts.

That was sort of my point. Some questions have been asked and answered a million times. Some, 10 million times. And then there's "AR -vs.- AK." -- uber alles.

I know you aren't interested in doing web searches. If you were you wouldn't have posted this question -- there would have been no need. That's why I found seven recent threads where you can find every answer to the question you could ever want.

I did not realize I was opening the proverbial Pandora's box by starting this thread.

Really? You have over 700 posts here and hadn't noticed that "AR-vs.AK" comes up -- not to put too fine a point on it -- frequently?

Frankly, I almost regret having asked anything at all. Thanks for the black eye.

Oh, good grief. "Black eye?" Surely we're not so sensitive? All in good-natured fun.

If I wanted to spend all of my time doing web searches for such topics, I would simply have no need for such a forum.

Well, to be fair, a forum such as this is a LOT more than a repository for simple technical information and I'd hope you'd find some value in membership here beyond as a gun encyclopedia ... But, even so, without such forums, where would you search to find your answers?

I come here for direct answers to direct questions.

We could also give you advice on ".45 -vs.- 9mm," ".30-'06 or .308?," "Rem 700 vs. Win. M70?," and the ever-popular, "what caliber for BEARS?"

I kid, I kid!

See? All this great information and a stellar sense of humor, too!

 

[John Parker]

Get a Galil it uses AR mags

...with an expensive adapter. http://www.impactguns.com/store/AR2G223GLN.html Also, the rifle is far more expensive but not more capable than either and AK or an AR. And the cheap ones are those CAI Golanis that have VERY mixed reviews.
So you really aren't better of getting one.

 

[inSight-NEO]

Unfortunately "Assault Rifle" has such a pejorative taint that we do try to avoid it unless speaking directly to "true" assault rifles.

OK. I will remember that. However, what is a "true" assault rifle?

Really? You have over 700 posts here and hadn't noticed that "AR-vs.AK" comes up -- not to put too fine a point on it -- frequently?

Yes. I have been here a while..and proud of it. However, if you notice, I have almost never posted anything within the "rifle" related forums. Heck, I have only started viewing such topics within the last week or so. Hence, this is new to me. Yes...I should probably know better, in terms of searching. But, it is what it is. I am a handgun and shotgun guy.....

If I came off as a bit, umm, sensitive..my apologies. I can tend to be somewhat combative at times. Nothing personal. Oh, and the "black eye" comment was, frankly, for theatrical purpose.

 

[Gord]

It's only a "true" assault rifle if it's select-fire.

I'm there with you on the whole "assault rifle" thing - it's the only widely accepted (both in and out of the gunny world) term for the things, but it carries such negative connotations. My preferred compromise is just to refer to them specifically as ARs and AKs.

 

[Sam1911]

No worries, and I sure hope I didn't REALLY offend you! My sense of humor gets the better of me some times.

You are, of course, right that there is very little that's truly "new" under the sun.

What kinds of things do you think you would value in a gun like this? What are your expectations?

Edit to Add: I'll cut to the chase and say, an AR-15 is probably going to win the popularity contest. If money is not an issue, the most EXTREME limits of reliability is not an issue, and the upper limits of accuracy IS an issue, the AR is a "better" rifle. More advanced design, much more modular/adaptable, much more ergonomic for most shooters.

Having said that, I really enjoy my AKs and you could hardly go wrong with one.

 

[benEzra]

OK. I will remember that. However, what is a "true" assault rifle?

A rifle capable of selective fire (i.e., capable of shooting in either full auto/burst or semiauto at the flick of a switch) and chambered for an intermediate cartridge (i.e., a smaller/lower velocity cartridge that splits the difference between handgun rounds and full-power rifle rounds).

Examples of assault rifles are the M16 series, the actual military AK-47 and AK-74, and so on. All selective-fire firearms in the USA (and those easily converted to such function) are tightly controlled by the National Firearms Act of 1934 as amended by the Hughes Amendment to the McClure-Volkmer Act of 1986. You can own one if you jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops and are willing to pay several thousand dollars; an actual civilian-transferable selective-fire AK or M16 goes for $15,000 and up.

Civilian AR-15's, civilian AK's, and whatnot are just civilian semiautomatic rifles or carbines with modern styling. Some people call them "tactical rifles" or "tactical carbines", and the gun control lobby calls them "assault weapons", but they're not actual assault rifles since they are not selective-fire.

 

[inSight-NEO]

It's only a "true" assault rifle if it's select-fire.

I'm there with you on the whole "assault rifle" thing - it's the only widely accepted (both in and out of the gunny world) term for the things, but it carries such negative connotations. My preferred compromise is just to refer to them specifically as ARs and AKs.

Thanks for the clarification. I will remember that. Also, I will avoid the misuse of the term "assault" in the future.

What kinds of things do you think you would value in a gun like this? What are your expectations?

Value? Well, as expected, reliability, durability, features and accessory/aftermarket friendliness. Essentially, something that I do not need to spend my time worrying about. Will this be simply a target weapon, HD weapon, or whatnot? I cannot say at this time. Expectations? All of the above. Seriously, I simply want such a rifle just to say I own one; also, one that I can depend on, time after time, regardless of its use.

I have always admired such rifles. But, until recently, I really have not considered owning one. Now that I want one, I have found that the possibilities/configurations/platforms are seemingly endless. I have never encountered this before when shopping for handguns or shotguns.

This almost makes me want to simply stick with handguns...or shotguns, for that matter.

 

[The_Pretender]

Since you are pretty open with your requirements, the only one that actually could make a difference was the "accessory/aftermarket friendliness".

You will get more there with an AR.

As it stands right now, you don't really lean to either side. I think you would be happy with either. See if you can't go somewhere to get some hands on, even fire them both.

They are both great weapons, full of history and lore.

I always recommend owning both.

 

[MCMXI]

There are two specific features on the AR that the AK doesn't have, and seem to be the make or break for actual use: the bolt hold open, and the safety.

I've shot a lot of AKs over the years but never wanted to own one. Like many here I went the AR route and figured I had enough of them once I got to three AR15s and one "AR10". However, once I read about the Vz.58 I knew that I had to have one. Not only is the Vz.58 an elegant design, it "fixes" both problems or deficiencies mentioned by Tirod since it has a bolt hold open and a decent AR style safety. With its machined receiver it's more aesthetically pleasing than an AK as well. Add in the fact that the Vz is considerably more accurate than an AK and equally reliable and it becomes a serious contender. Parts and magazines are readily available and recoil is minimal such that small women and children will have no problem shooting it all day long. You just have to buy the ammunition!

The Vz compares very favorably to the AK in any situation. From 0 to 300 yards with low power optics and in any sort of practical shooting scenario it would do well against a similarly equipped AR too. With practice, magazine changes can be accomplished with considerable speed but maybe not quite as fast as the AR. Anyway, check out this neat video featuring the Vz.58 in full-auto mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSLV9rd53vw

Here's mine ...

 

[unit91]

Edit to Add: I'll cut to the chase and say, an AR-15 is probably going to win the popularity contest. If money is not an issue, the most EXTREME limits of reliability is not an issue, and the upper limits of accuracy IS an issue, the AR is a "better" rifle. More advanced design, much more modular/adaptable, much more ergonomic for most shooters.

Having said that, I really enjoy my AKs and you could hardly go wrong with one.

Amen all the way. I freely admit to being an AK lover, but I agree that most folks -- ideology aside -- will probably enjoy shooting an AR more.

 

[bpl]

Get the AR. I like to call it a semi-auto modular rifle/carbine. You can make it into whatever you want with all the aftermarket parts, accessories, different upper recievers, etc. Play with the AR awhile, then if you still want one, get a AK too!

 

[PandaBearBG]

Figure out what you want to use it for, ie: home defense, plinking, target, CQB, Iraq, competition, sentimental reasons such as bestowing it upon your children, hunting, truck gun, end of the world (I know but we've all thought about it), etc. Then consider the range, cailber, etc. Then consider if you ever want to upgrade or enhance or tweek your rifle. Of course that last part factors in cost and money. Weigh the pros and cons of each and decide from there.

 

[Art Eatman]

Thanks, PandaBear. You have more patience than I.