Speaking of lemon squeezers... Old Fuff?

[QuarterBoreGunner]

My local gun store has an absolutely beautiful little S&W New Departure Safety Hammerless in .32 S&W Short.

Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know a lot about these cute little break tops, but this one's nickel finish and grips were so nice (in a gun probably over 100 years old) that I had to take a closer look.

The mechanism is tight and the action still seems to function just fine (though this is not a shooter to me.. can you even get .32 S&W Short anymore?), but I have several questions in my mind - the serial number is 7678 and I can't seem to locate my copy of SCOSW so I have no idea how old this thing is. The patent dates on the top strap are: Feb 20, 77. Dec 16, 77. May 11, 80. Sept 11, 83. Oct 2, 85. Aug 4, 85. So I'm guessing pre-turn of the century.
Also it does not have "Smith & Wesson" on it anywhere i could see except the top strap. No logo on the side plate.

Most interesting things are the markings on the barrel. Left side: CLAUDIN a' PARIS
Right side: Bp. ITALIENS .38

Absolutely no clue what that means; the revolver is obviously a .32 so what the .38 means, I have no idea.

Any clues as to what this is?

 

[WheelGunMom]

Can I second the request for more info on the old hammerless .32 “lemon squeezers”? I was just gifted one about a week ago by an old friend. Mine is in pretty sorry shape cosmetically – it had obviously been neglected for many years, with much corrosion of the nickel finish. (Sorry – no pic of mine to post yet – but it’s the exact same 2” model (but with many patches of nickel worn away) as the one for sale here http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=4617).

I’ve carefully cleaned it up and put a little bit of luster back in the finish, and plan to take it to a local gunsmith to do a full check, and I already have the S&W “Letter of Authenticity” request filled out to see who originally purchased my lil’ wheelgun back in the 1890s (or thereabouts). Unlike QuaterBoreGunner’s, mine appears to have the correct S&W barrel markings and the engraved S&W logo both on the grips and above the grip on one side. It is serial #155XXX.

So . . . I’ll confess I’d really like to shoot mine – tell me, am I crazy to think this is safe???
(.32 S&W short ammo is available at at least one Internet source (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5827.htm))

QuaterBoreGunner’s potential purchase looks like a beautiful example. I hope someone can solve the mystery of his foreign version.

 

[gezzer]

I'll bet CLONE!! not made by S&W

 

[sfhogman]

I've seen the same gun. Tempting little thing. I'm darned if I know what those marks mean. I should have thought to look at the grips more carefully. I guess I just assumed that was the dealer's rollmark. The gun appears to be a nickel .32 Safety Hammerless, first model, or a nicely made clone.

It's a nifty little gun, but for $400....

Jeff

 

[tipoc]

The particular gun pictured looks to be a clone, the Italian rollmarks give that away, evan though someone has put S&W stocks on it.

The locking mechanism looks off as well. Most top breaks that I've seen have the rear sights integral to the latch. I'll look at a couplea books and maybe change my opinion though.

tipoc

 

[Old Fuff]

All of these little revolvers are junk, and should be sent to the Old Fuff for ...ah...well... got it! Safe disposal.

Well to start with, the revolver pictured is a genuine Smith & Wesson, and the barrel latch is correct for a S&W Safety Hammerless, 1st Model (1888 – 1902). The latch design was changed to a more typical S&W style in the Second Model (1902-1909) and Third Model (1909 – 1937).

.32 S&W (not .32 S&W Short – ain’t no such thing) ammunition is available, and may be safely fired in 2nd and 3rd Models (serial number 170,000 up) if the gun is in good condition. I have shot 1st. Models, but it’s not a good idea.

All of these guns were chambered in .32 S&W (which is indeed short, and in about the same class as .32 ACP). Standard barrel lengths were 3 and 3 ½ inches – measured from the cylinder face to the end of the barrel. The 2 inch length was not introduced until the 2nd Model in so-called “Bicycle Guns” that could be carried by bicyclists of the day to drive off dogs and human villains, and wouldn’t accidentally go off if dropped during a spill. Genuine examples, which are rare, have the patent dates stamped on the right side of the barrel. All others are usually either stamped on the top of the barrel rib, or in the case of many later 3rd Models, not at all. They also made a few with 6 inch barrels. Standard finishes were blue or nickel plate, with nickel being more common in earlier guns. The trigger guards were usually blued (a tip-off to a refinishing job if they are nickeled) as were the cylinder latches on 2nd and 3rd Models. Triggers were color-case hardened. The grip safety was a unique S&W feature, and explains the “safety” part of the model’s name.

The pictured gun (serial # 7678) is an early pre-1890, 1st Model that is likely a legal antique – which might or might not be important in anti-gun San Francisco. S&W could confirm the year of manufacturer. The markings indicate that it was exported to Europe, where S&W revolvers were very popular. The $400.00 price is a little high, but not out of the ballpark for a gun in that condition, especially considering the age. Also as a rule, California prices are higher anyway.

The other mentioned revolver, (serial #155,xxx) is a 2nd Model, made around 1904. If it has a genuine 2" barrel, and not a cut-off, it's worth about twice what a similar common revolver would be. Beware of fakes, and a factory letter confirming the barrel length is a "must."

To see some neat pictures, and get a feel for market prices, go to www.armsbid.com and look at the auction results. Be aware that another auction is coming up in October, and that Jim Supica, one of our leading Smith & Wesson authorities, is a member of The High Road. Very nice guy too.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Old Fuff, outstanding info as always much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Chris

 

[WheelGunMom]

Old Fuff,
Many thanks for the excellent advice and info on the classic "lemon squeezers." Here's a picture of mine:

 

[Old Fuff]

Well now....

It appears to be a 2nd or 3rd model with a two inch barrel. From the picture I can't tell if it's a cut-down, or the genuine article. If there are patent dates on the right side of the barrel, and the top of the rib is unmarked, you should get it lettered by Smith & Wesson's historian, Roy G. Jinks. The increase in value will more then cover the $30.00 search fee.

 

[Sistema1927]

I don't have a "lemon squeezer" but I do have a 4th Model DA in .32 S&W. Ammo is available, as are empty cases. I shot up a bunch of Mag-Tech, and load a 77 gr. lead "pill" over 1.1 gr. W231. I don't have any accurate way to throw 1.1 gr., so I trickle it into the pan and weigh every charge. Makes loading v-e-r-y s-l-o-w.

Tiny little things, but tons of fun to shoot.

 

[tipoc]

Good work Fuff!

tipoc

 

[WheelGunMom]

Old Fuff, thanks again. I will indeed send off my $30 to Mr. Jinks to confirm the history of my new acquisition.

It’s kind of serendipitous how I got this gun.

I have an old friend who was wrapping up his job as executor of an estate. All that was valuable had been sold off and the proceeds given to the heirs, and all that was left was a few boxes of personal effects that he was giving away. My friend thought I might be interested in some of the costume jewelry that had not sold. He brought out a moving box and lifted out several jewelry boxes. He then left to take a phone call and I absentmindedly peeked into the moving box. At the bottom of the box was a small pile of guns.

The jewelry was quickly forgotten at that point. I pulled out a Charter Arms snubbie, an old Colt semi-auto, another old revolver, and then caught a glimpse of a classic S&W logo. It was the very dirty “lemon squeezer” pictured above. Well, right then I felt like Charlie Brown when he finds that pathetic little tree on that classic Christmas TV special. After several minutes of “where the heck is the cylinder release on this thing,” I realized it was a top-break and that I wasn’t going home without this gun.

My friend was more than a little surprised when he walked back in the room and saw me with the little wheelgun in hand. (He had no idea I was a gun owner – I’ve kept this very private.) He told me he’d sent pictures of all the guns to a gun dealer, who apparently expressed no interest in them, and told me I was quite welcome to take the little gun.

I can’t help but smile now when I see it stored next to my big S&W 686+.

Gotta love those wheelguns!

 

[1BLINDREF]

Interesting thread.
I always learn something from Old Fuffs posts - thanks

 

[Old Fuff]

WheelGunMom:

Neat story...

I think you'll find the information in the letter to be worth the $30.00 fee. The records are not computerized, and are in old ledger books. To make things worse, the guns were not shipped - or even manufactured - in order of serial number. Roy will dig anyway, and find the listing he will. Be sure to inclose a copy of your picture, and a description that includes the serial number stamped on the butt, and likely on the rear face of the cylinder. Also a check made out to S&W in the amount of $30.00 - half of which incidentally will go to support the U.S Olympic Shooting Team.

By the way, in the old days at the factory these .32 and .38 revolvers were called the "Safety Hammerless Model," or just "Safety," for short. They were also known as the "New Departure" Model. However the popular term "Lemon Squeezer" was detested, and in some circles at S&W still is...

Be sure to use the correct name, lest you ruffle some feathers...

 

[WheelGunMom]

Old Fuff, I can't thank you enough. I will be sure to use the appropriate terms when I send off my request to S&W.

What a fascinating job Mr. Jinks has!

 

[Iggy]

WheelGunMom,

Go back and find out more about that Colt!!!!!!

 

[WheelGunMom]

Iggy, I'll do that!