Specter wants to pass law agaisnt changing laws

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Ira Aten said:
My entire gripe is that Specter is concerned more for his powers in Congress, than our right not to have the Constitution subverted by a guy who thinks he can fraudulently attempt to change law.

I think there are two different issues raised by your statement. First is the issue of Specter attempting to gain more power for Congress (that incidentally makes lawyers and judges more powerful as well, little wonder the ABA likes it). Congress has plenty of powers available to it short of impeachment to rein in the Executive if it needs to and I agree with you that what Specter proposes is dangerous.

The second issue is whether or not Bush has "fraudulently attempted to change the law". Near as I can tell, all Bush has done is explain his opposition to the law or describe how he will enforce the law. I have yet to see any evidence presented by anyone that Bush is not faithfully executing the law that Congress has passed.

You have pointed out that Bush has indicated in a signing statement he doesn't consider the ban on torture binding because of separation of powers issues. That is not evidence that he is not enforcing the law though. To use an analogy, I can tell a police office that I don't consider the 55mph speed limit binding because it is too slow and I don't like it. However, until I exceed the speed limit, he can't write me a ticket.

As for the Federal Register, it is chock full of regulations having the force of law that Congress never wrote. That is because it is published by the executive branch and details the Executive branch's interpretation of how authority delegated by Congress should be exercised. It is basically a guide for administrative law, so it isn't a big surprise that the comments of the head of the Executive branch are going to be printed in it.

The argument that Bush is doing something fraudulent or unconstitutional isn't as clear as you seem to be claiming it is.
 
I will try one more time, and ask that you read the entirity of this post.
Okay, I read your entire post.

You are consumed by the question of what a President might write on a bill. The only thing that matters, per the Constitution, is whether a President signs a bill or not. If the President signs a bill, it becomes law; if the President does not sign a bill, it does not become law unless Congress overrides the veto. It is a simple, straightforward process. All of the other rhetoric floating around is just political posturing.
 
Dear gc70:

I have been busy, and just checked back in and read your comments.

I am indeed consumed with something, and it ain't apathy. You think there is no basis for my "rhetoric".

But I ask you to consider this. I think the Constitution says what it says about the signing (or returning) of a bill by the President for a specific reason. And nobody has even addressed it that I saw.

Government Employees such as President Bush (and Federal Judges inventing law from the bench) are continually allowed to try and make us believe they have powers which they do not have, precisely due to our allowing them to chip away at the method of government that was agreed to at the founding of the nation. (Another example of stepping out of bounds by the President, can be found at www.spp.gov)

But taking such leave from their powers, is what has led to such subversions of our system of government as "plea bargain" agreements, and Presidents signing treaties, without approval of Congress. (www.spp.gov)

Nowhere is it Constitutionally allowed for a criminal trial be heard by a Judge without a jury. Those plea bargains take away the right of the people of public trial (granted under the VI Amendment) to insure that fair judgement and penalty is rendered, and that it be in open court, not by a "bargain" set out by a government employee, without chance of jury nullification.

If you read the VI Amendment closely, you will see that not only is it a guarantee of an individual to have a speedy trial, you will see (if you read it without prejudice, and bear with me on it, just go back and read it in total and you may understand what I am trying to point out) it was intended to guarantee the public was not screwed by partial judges or District Attorneys making decisions about punishment of criminals, without any oversight by the PEOPLE just to boost their conviction ratios and look good during election time.

Obviously, it is easier to pay off one government employee, than it is to pay off twelve jurors, and the judge at the same time. That is why the Founders wrote into the VIth Amendment, that we the pople, were entitled to a speedy trial, and that the trial will be BY AN IMPARTIAL JURY.

By taking away the jury powers to be present and deal out the proper punishment you take away the power FROM the people, and GIVE it to government employees.

The obvious intention of the Amendment, written in clear, plain language, has been slowly bastardized by an inarguably Unconstitutional power grab by the courts, until such time as they control the very most important power we had, which is the control of the Judiciary, Executive, and the Legislative. (As you can see, we have lost control of the Judiciary, and it is not valid that we do so, I don't care what a Judge tells you. If a government is to be a governemnt of the people, you cannot exclude them from it totally, which is what a plea bargain arrangement is)

But due to our allowing this to occur, we see State Web Sites listing three time convicted child molesters living down the street from us, because some Judge "felt" light terms were in order or a District Attorney who was looking for a method of increasing the number of "convictions" he "serves the public" with, went in front of the Judge and told him he had cut a deal. The Judge allows it each and every time, because he wants the D.A.'s support come election time.

The rights of not only persons, but the rights of "the people" are continually chipped away due to allowing Government Employees we elect, or aallow to be appointed by the ones we do elect, to simply expand their powers until such time as you have a President who feels he can sign a treaty with two countries, and not even consider discussing it with Congress. (www.spp.gov)

It continues because we are always told "Well, Nixon did it" or "Roosevelt did it" and it therefore becomes accepted. Or "that little note written on that bill, later printed (the declaration of intent not to consider it law, and allow torture) in the Federal Register, or to simply not question anyone at all why Bush signed the "North American Partnership" contract/agreement/treaty with Mexico and Candada, with no 2/3rd required vote of Congress.

Another person asked why I am "concentrating" on impeachment. The reason is, that is what the Constitution prescribes to resolve it, not another law that defies it, or allows EVEN MORE power to be granted to the Senate than is Constituionally allowed.

This may not be currently recognized as an important matter, because it doesn't "really count" as law.

However, that does not change the fact that the Constitution states verbatim what the President is to do should he not agree with a bill. This one, (and others) have violated the power, and the oath, and if something is not done soon, when Hillary or Rudy, or John McCain get in, there is not telling what encouragement they will gain from (1) A President declaring in writing on a Bill itself, that portions are not law (2) A President signing a treaty called the "United Nations Small Arms" treaty which will outlaw totally, your right to keep and bear arms.

Just consider what allowing continual subversion of (and disreagard for the duties set forth in) the Constitution by Government Employees currently in power has been:

No intention whatsoever to secure the border (regardless of the promise in the Constitution to protect do for any and all states)

Mass Gun Confiscations (ordered by one government employee)

Forced Relocations of peacable citizens

Allowing armed Mexican troops to conduct operations in Texas, driving up Interstate 35 in Texas while fully armed and displaying .50 calber machine guns


"Executive signing statements" designed to allow the torture of suspects in direct defiance of the very Federal Law a President had just signed

"Trilateral Networks" of police agencies being announced (www.spp.gov)

North American Partnership treaties setting up a "EU" arrangement (www.spp.gov)



Yeah, I guess you are right. I am consumed. But I don't think it is with "rhetoric".

I would just call it a deep concern for protecting the continuation of our representative republic system of government. The actions listed directly above, sure don't seem to me to be a good way to ensure it.
 
Okay, Ira, you have a general complaint about the way the government works in many ways. I can respect that.

You apparently see the question of bill-signing statements and Congressional reaction as characteristic of other problems... the straw that breaks the camel's back, if you will. That's fair in your perspective.

I do not see the bill-signing issue as having any substance in and of itself. From my perspective, it is a non-issue.
 
brufener wrote:
I think its funny that the article cites "civic textbooks" instead of an expert that can be further questioned. I'd like to see specific quotes from these "civic textbooks."

From the constitution:
Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it.

BryanP quoted the Wiki article on signing statements but left this part out:
The upswing in reliance on signing statements during the Reagan administration coincides with the writing by Justice Samuel A. Alito – then a staff attorney in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel – of a 1986 memorandum making the case for "interpretive signing statements" as a tool to "increase the power of the Executive to shape the law." Alito proposed adding signing statements to a "reasonable number of bills" as a pilot project, but warned that "Congress is likely to resent the fact that the President will get in the last word on questions of interpretation."[5]



On signing statements not having any affecting law (From the ABA report):
This pattern continued basically into the first 80 years of the 20th century. President
Theodore Roosevelt proclaimed his intention in 1909 to ignore a restriction on his power to establish volunteer commissions in a signing statement; President Woodrow Wilson advised in a signing statement that executing a particular provision would result in violation of 32 treaties which he refused to do; and in 1943 President Franklin Roosevelt vehemently lashed back at a rider in an appropriation bill which barred compensation to three government employees deemed “subversive” by the Congress. Roosevelt “place[d] on record my view that this provision is not only unwise and discriminatory, but unconstitutional” and was thus not binding on the Executive or Judicial branches. This signing statement was later cited by the Supreme Court in United States v. Lovett,21 where it held the law unconstitutional. Roosevelt indicated he would enforce the law but that when the employees sued, he would instruct the Attorney General to side with them and attack the statute, which he did. Congress had to appoint a special counsel to defend it, unsuccessfully.22

So, Bush is stacking the court with people for a power grab by the Executive who are the ones who will determine whether or not these statements are constitutional.


From Franklin’s speech prior to the signing of the Constitution:
…and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism…

It looks to me like we’re getting closer and closer to fulfilling Franklin's prophecy…
 
Dear DBabsJr:

And no better example of Mr. Franklin's prediction can be found than the one available for viewing at the government web site address shown below:

www.spp.gov
 
DBABSjr:

Neither the Constitution or wikipedia are "civic textbooks," not to say that the Constitution should not be studied in a civics course. But, it is not a textbook, it is a constitution. I will respond anyway.

Constitution
If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated,

It doesn't take much to see that Bush is approving the bills, and then stating how they should be administered or enforced. As far as I can tell, the Constitution does not prohibit the executive from administering or enforcing the laws. Since the laws passed by Congress did not address every possible detail or contingency, the system seems to contemplate having the executive fill in the details. I see the signing statements as the President stating how he will fill in the details.

One other concern people have is when Bush states that he will enforce the law unless it conflicts with the executive power (or something similar). I see no problem here. Let me give an example (but please ignore the obvious states' right issue). Suppose Congress says "the speed limit shall be 55 mph in the United States." Suppose Bush then says "I will enforce the speed limit of 55 mph, but not on private race tracks." This is not a problem because we can assume that Congress knows that speed limits have traditionally been applied to public roads only, and we can assume that if they meant to alter where the speed limits was applied they would have explicitly stated it. Another way of stating this is that every bill that Congress passes implicitly refers to all other laws. Hence a bill should be interpreted as not conflicting with other laws, where possible because if Congress intended for the bill to supersede a law in effect, it would have explicitly done so. While the President does not have final say on interpretation, by its very nature enforcing or administering a law involves some interpretation. I don't understand the problem with having the executive spell out how he is going to enforce the law.

The upswing in reliance on signing statements during the Reagan administration coincides with the writing by Justice Samuel A. Alito – then a staff attorney in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel – of a 1986 memorandum making the case for "interpretive signing statements" as a tool to "increase the power of the Executive to shape the law." Alito proposed adding signing statements to a "reasonable number of bills" as a pilot project, but warned that "Congress is likely to resent the fact that the President will get in the last word on questions of interpretation."[5]

This just reinforces what everyone has been saying all along, the signing statements represent a struggle for power between the executive and legislative branches. There is nothing inherently wrong with the executive branch trying to get more power. It is only wrong if the executive branch gets more power than it should have. I submit that the exact boundaries of the branches' powers is ambiguous. Hence we have these struggles.

Bush is stacking the court with people for a power grab by the Executive

Don't forget, Bush has "stacked the court" with the advice and consent of the senate.

Again, I see no problem with signing statements in and of themselves.
 
Beufner:

I'd bet you would see the problem if you were the "suspect" being tortured pursuant to the Presidents "signing statement", which is in direct opposition to the Congress thought they passed disallowing it. Because if you were being tortured, it would be a violation of the law Congress passed. Plus, it hurts like hell.
 
There is nothing inherently wrong with the executive branch trying to get more power. It is only wrong if the executive branch gets more power than it should have.

If those who would decide the constitutionality of a signing statement are the ones who encouraged this practice as a way for the Executive to get more power, then the Executive has succeeded in getting more power because they'll rule in the Executive's favor when it comes before the Court.

And on the Constitution, I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way. The President is not to pick and choose. Didn't the Supreme Court rule against the line item veto when Clinton wanted it? This is an end around line item veto.

I disagree with Ira on who is losing power here. I believe the ABA is correct in that the Congress loses their ability to check the President and that they are the ones who should pursue action against these statements. Point well taken on the 'new law' thing where the President just uses a signing statement so that it doesn't apply to him or her.

I don't get it...I expected places like this where the plain language of the 2nd Amendment is touted to really be up in arms over this one.
 
Clinton gets a BJ in Office abd the AWB (10 year limit.)

Bush has done much more harm to out nation than that.Much more.
 
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