Specter wants to pass law agaisnt changing laws

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foob,

Your quote from Wikipedia is doing the same thing the news reports are doing...trying to make this into more than the facts support.

So what if Bush challenges the constitutionality of laws or sections of laws passed by Congress? The constitutionality will still be decided in the same arena where it has traditionally been settled-the federal court system.

Are the people who are in such a lather about this trying to assert that Congress never passes unconstitutional law?

Maybe we need a procedure put in place where, when Congress passes a bill, that bill is immediately reviewed by the Supreme Court if the President expresses reservations as to its constitutionality.

Such a procedure would address the President's reservations as well as the Congress critters...constitutionally.
 
Maybe we need a procedure put in place where, when Congress passes a bill, that bill is immediately reviewed by the Supreme Court if the President expresses reservations as to its constitutionality.

I would like that.


Regarding signing statements, I don't think Bush is expressing his doubts on the constitutionality of the law through it, instead, he is reinterpreting the law to suit his purposes or to just ignore it.

For example, the torture ban law, I just used google and quote the first search result.

''We are not going to ignore this law," the official said, noting that Bush, when signing laws, routinely issues signing statements saying he will construe them consistent with his own constitutional authority. ''We consider it a valid statute. We consider ourselves bound by the prohibition on cruel, unusual, and degrading treatment."

But, the official said, a situation could arise in which Bush may have to waive the law's restrictions (***!!!) to carry out his responsibilities to protect national security. He cited as an example a ''ticking time bomb" scenario, in which a detainee is believed to have information that could prevent a planned terrorist attack.

''Of course the president has the obligation to follow this law, [but] he also has the obligation to defend and protect the country as the commander in chief, and he will have to square those two responsibilities in each case," the official added. ''We are not expecting that those two responsibilities will come into conflict, but it's possible that they will."

David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.

''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' " he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on."

If the law specifically says NO, and yet the president can interpret it to say YES when he deems it necessary, then I think everybody should sit up and worry.

He has chosen to say (of course in a roundabout way) that he can decide, at any point, to ignore any law, to perform the duties of the presidency (e.g. torture someone to find critical info). Can you imagine if the police started torturing suspects (or simply just ignoring the bill of rights) when people have been kidnapped or are just missing? Is that justified, after all, they are trying to find the missing person who could be in immediate danger.


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I guess I should qualify everything I post else somebody get offended again... I haven't read his signing statements, I am reading news articles about them. Take everything with a grain of salt and go read it yourself. It could be this super duper huge liberal media conspiracy against him, and Arlen Specter could be a robot controlled by Michael Moore and Hillary "hasn't gotten laid in a while" Clinton.
 
Generally when the American Bar Association, and Arlen Specter (the republican senate judiciary committee chairman), both respected for their knowledge of the law, are freaking out, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and look more closely at what Bush is doing.

No they are not freaking out, this is a good opportunity for Lawyers (the ones that make large campaign contributions, of course) to stick it to John Q taxpayer for a couple million a pop. Specter never misses a chance to hook up his fellow scumbag lawyers.

Lawyers: Hey buddy, hook us up. We scratched your back, you scratch ours. ;)
Specter: Okay, how about you sue the governement on behalf of the government? Bottomless coffers to draw from, so spend wisely. ;) We'll need at least a dozen of you to represent Congress and bill $1000 an hour, and at least a dozen of you to defend the Whitehouse at $1000 on hour.
Lawyers: Brilliant! We'll hit the media, you start writing.

How many members of Congress are lawyers?
How much money did ABA "donate" to members of congress last year?
 
Congress hires private lawyers on taxpayer dollars to sue the executive branch (or others)?

I looked and it seems the General Accounting Office (GAO), the investigative arm of Congress, does any suing and they have lawyers to do that already.
 
I'm not suffering from Irrational Bush Hatred syndrome. I'm suffering from Have Totally Exausted My Patience With This Moron syndrome.

Nice try at credibility, but this is nonsense. You have "exhausted your patience" because you have been trained to see all statements and actions of the administration as wrong, misguided, or Draconian. That is no different than listening to partisan Democrat whining and obstructionism. It's what you are supposed to believe. It's their message, the voice of socialism, the "please put me back in power" whining, reinforced constantly by the media either creating issues or reporting their negative spin on them. The reality is that this or any other administration has pluses and minuses, and it is not easy to be objective in the midst of all the negative propaganda from opposition.
 
My point is though, the Constitution forbids it. It says EXACTLY what the President is supposed to do if he does not agree with the language.

The Constitution also says what Congress can do if the President fails to follow it's guidelines, and that is impeachment.

With all due respect, the Constitution also states that the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed" but there seems to be a lot of "infringement" at the local, state and federal level.
 
Maybe we need a procedure put in place where, when Congress passes a bill, that bill is immediately reviewed by the Supreme Court if the President expresses reservations as to its constitutionality.

My faith in the SCOTUS on constitutionality is long gone. It seems to me the system is broken yet still given weight.
 
The VETO is a better way to protest the constitutionality of a bill. However, I don't see any issue with Bush being up front about how he will enforce a bill. Of all the things to get upset about, that is pretty lame.
 
As to the comments that I am engaging in Bush Bashing, or a "hate Bush" type of campaign, I would like to point out that I have two signed photos of him and Ms. Bush above my desk, which the Republican party (obviously) mailed to me because of the small campaign donations I made to the party, so I am not a Bush Basher.

In fact, in June I was invited to be a delegate to the Republican Party State Convention in San Antonio, which I assume is due to my small financial donations in the past or possibly my volunteering to help during local primaries.

But after much thought, I declined to serve, knowing I disagreed strongly with the party not raising a louder voice to protest the President's signing of the "McCain-Feingold First Amendment Nullification Act." and the North American Partnership Agreement/Treaty document that commits the United States to a trilateral network. (info available at www.spp.gov)

So I would hardly think anyone can credibly call me a "Bush Basher" or a "Bush Hater", or an Anti-Republican, since I am a registered Republican.

I would call myself someone who can read a clearly written document and understand certain powers that are clearly not granted.

I can read a news article reporting a story saying the President "added language" (excluding him from obeying a law he just signed) "next to his signature", and that it concerned the Senate Judiciary Committe Chairman(and the American Bar Association) so much, they want to pass a law allowing them to file a suit against the President for doing it, and be open minded enough to realize there might be a slight problem that needs addressing.

I am not one to say "Well, it is not really, really included in the law" when considering that the ORIGINAL DOCUMENT he signed into law might contain a a clause not voted on in the Congress, and simply added in after the vote. That is called "cheating." (I would hate to play cards with someone who thought it was not cheating)

According to the logic of one person on the board who says "I doubt the register shows his comments" that same logic would support saying there is no legal need for the United States Government to maintain the original signed copies of the Constitution since you can get another copy of it in the register or on the internet."

If the President of the United States knowingly wrote in an exclusionary clause on an original bill with an intent to pass a law he altered the language on, and claimed he believed it law, then my opinion is Specter is somewhat right in saying he should be sued.

But Specter is wrong saying it shoudl be by a new law, when the action prescribe within the Constitution, impeachment by the House and trial in the Senate overseen by the Supreme Court Justice, is the remedy that PROTECTS THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE, AND THE POWER OF CONGRESS at the same time.

Besides, if the President is actually doing what the article claims, and Specter sent him a bill allowing suit that passed the Congress, all the President would need to do is add language to the bill that allowed Congressmen to sue him, excluding him (because of the executive priviledge) and sign it into law.

When served with the suit, all the Presidents lawyer would need is to ask for a directed verdict based on the altered law, excluding him from suit. (Would be an interesting case, I admit)

But if it is proved to be true that the President "added language next to his signature" that changed (in any manner) the meaning of the words appearing on that bill as it passed through Congress , I believe it presents a legal problem. (Apparantly so doe the Senate and the ABA)

Just because a previous procession of Presidents claimed extra-constitutional powers, doesn't mean we have to agree it is acceptable through precedent. If he didn't do it then he is not guilty, and there is no problem on that issue.

Possibly, with United States Senators wanting to sue him, and the American Bar Association's announcement that judicial review is necessary due to this problem as reported, it appears there may be some merit.

And no, I am not a lawyer.
 
Ira,

I believe most of us don't see a problem with the signing statements because they do not have any legal effect on the law beyond what the President has anyway. I'm not sure why you are so concerned with what or how the President writes when he signs the law. All of the legal effect in that law comes from the language that Congress passed. The President's words have no legal effect beyond what his powers are.

I'm not sure what you mean by your example of the Constitution. I think preserving the original Constitution is important for historical reasons, and also so any copies of the Constitution can be verified as being correct. However, suppose the President got ahold of the original Constitution, and stapled a statement to it. Heck, suppose he even wrote in the margins. Do you mean to imply that either of those acts would change the Constitution? No matter what the President does, he cannot change the Constitution. He doesn't have the authority to do it. In the same fashion he does not have the authority to change what Congress has passed, so any statements he makes have no legal effect beyond his power to enforce the law.

The real concern that I see people having is whether the President is enforcing the law. Now, whether he writes that he won't enforce a law, says (orally) that he won't enforce a law, or uses sign language to say he won't enforce a law, I don't see why the manner in which he shows his intent would matter. Of course, the debate on whether he is really enforcing the law is another debate entirely.

BTW, I didn't bother responding to your presidential oath scenario because it was too far out there. However, you are right about them being commonly referred to as Presidential powers, not rights. I apologize for my mistake.
 
Buetner, you may want ot also read the following:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...7/MNGELIN29G1.DTL&hw=sidesteps&sn=001&sc=1000

President Bush signed a military spending bill in December that included a hard-fought amendment banning the cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of foreign prisoners. Then he put a statement in the Federal Register asserting his right to ignore the ban when necessary, in his judgment, to protect Americans from terrorism.

In March, Bush signed a renewal of search and surveillance provisions of the USA Patriot Act and said at a public ceremony that civil liberties would be protected by a series of new amendments. Then he quietly inserted another statement in the Federal Register that virtually nullified one of those amendments, a requirement that the administration report to Congress on the FBI's use of its powers under the Patriot Act to seize library, bookstore and business records.

Civics textbooks say presidents have two choices when Congress passes a bill that's not completely to their liking: They can sign it into law, or they can veto it and let Congress try to override them.

Bush, far more than any of his predecessors, is resorting to a third option: signing a bill while reserving the right to disregard any part of it that he considers an infringement on his executive authority or constitutional powers.

In more than five years in office, the president has never vetoed a bill. But while approving new laws, he has routinely issued signing statements interpreting the legislation in ways that amount to partial vetoes of provisions to which he objects.

White House spokesman Blair Jones insisted that Bush is not trying to undermine the lawmaking authority of Congress, and noted that many past presidents have issued statements on the meaning of bills they sign.

Presidential scholars, in fact, trace signing statements back to the early 19th century. But for much of the nation's history, they have been little more than bureaucratic memos instructing subordinates on the implementation of new laws. Bush has transformed them into declarations of executive supremacy.

According to Christopher Kelley, an assistant professor of political science at Miami University in Ohio who has studied presidential powers, Bush issued 505 statements in his first term objecting to portions of new laws on constitutional grounds. Documents available at the White House Web site indicate that the number since Bush took office now exceeds 700.

By comparison, Kelley said, President Ronald Reagan, the first to use signing statements as an instrument of presidential power, issued 71 such statements in two terms; President George Bush issued 146 in one term; and President Bill Clinton issued 105 in two terms.

The numbers tell only part of the story, said Phillip Cooper, a professor of government administration at Portland State University who has studied signing statements and other executive actions.

"This administration has been much more systematic and much broader in scope'' in signing statements, Cooper said, on its "path to expand presidential powers at the expense of Congress and the courts.''

He said Bush has pursued that goal with a variety of presidential directives and in the electronic surveillance he ordered after Sept. 11, 2001, of international contacts between Americans and alleged terror suspects, without the court warrants required by a 1978 law. When the surveillance program was disclosed by the New York Times in December, the administration said Bush's constitutional powers overrode any congressional authority to require warrants.

Among the most common targets of Bush's signing statements have been laws requiring his administration to disclose information, issue reports, appoint officials with specified qualifications, or consult with Congress on the implementation of a law. Bush has regularly reinterpreted these mandates as "advisory'' measures that he is free to ignore.

Other statements have scuttled affirmative action programs, rejected congressional criteria for spending federal money, and declared that Bush would follow laws affecting international affairs only to the extent that they respected "the constitutional authority of the president to conduct the nation's foreign relations.''

A rare congressional reaction came from Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., author of the Patriot Act amendments requiring the Justice Department to report to Congress on the FBI's use of its powers to search and seize records.

After learning in March that Bush had asserted authority to withhold the information, Leahy said the president "appears to believe that he can pick and choose which laws to obey and need never submit to congressional oversight.'' He accused Bush of making "a radical effort to reshape the constitutional separation of powers and evade accountability and responsibility for following the law.''

In response, Jones, the White House spokesman, said Bush's bill-signing statements simply affirm that he "will faithfully execute the law in a manner that is consistent with the Constitution. That's the oath he took and the one he keeps.''

The question is who decides -- the president, Congress or the courts -- whether a law is being executed in a manner that is consistent with the Constitution.

The civics-book answer is clear: Congress passes the laws, the president carries them out, and the courts decide whether they're constitutional. And before ruling on the validity of a law, courts traditionally determine its meaning by examining the intent of Congress -- not the president -- as expressed in the language of the statute, congressional debates and committee reports.

Although the courts have not yet decided how much weight, if any, to give to presidential signing statements, most legal scholars doubt a president's authority to reinterpret laws in ways that conflict with congressional intent. One who disagrees, John Eastman, a law professor at Chapman University in Orange County, says his view -- that the president shares constitutional lawmaking power with Congress -- is not widely held.

"A significant majority of our nation's leading constitutional scholars think we have a parliamentary system where the president is a functionary of Congress,'' Eastman said.

The Supreme Court could address the issue in a current case in which the administration has argued, based on a Bush signing statement in December, that a new federal law has stripped courts of jurisdiction over pending appeals from foreigners held at Guantanamo Bay. Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., an author of the law, says Congress "considered and rejected" the president's interpretation.

But presidential signing statements are seldom challenged, for two reasons: Congress pays little attention to most of them, and private citizens are usually unable to prove they were harmed by the president's actions, a prerequisite for the right to sue.

Much of the theory behind signing statements can be traced back 20 years to a Reagan administration effort to regain presidential prerogatives lost to Congress after the Watergate scandal of the 1970s. Future Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, then a Justice Department lawyer, was among the advocates for a new role for traditionally obscure bill-signing statements.

"The president's understanding of the bill should be just as important as that of Congress,'' Alito said in a February 1986 memo. If presidents used the statements to announce their interpretations, he wrote, "it would increase the power of the executive to shape the law.''

He cautioned, however, that such statements probably "will not be warmly welcomed by Congress.'' Alito advised starting small, with a limited number of bills and with interpretations that avoided direct conflicts with lawmakers.

Asked about the memo at his Supreme Court confirmation hearing in January, Alito stressed that he had been speaking as a lawyer, not a judge.

The Reagan administration made signing statements more prominent, arranging for their publication as part of a bill's legislative history, and in at least one case, persuading the Supreme Court to adopt Reagan's interpretation of a newly signed law, Kelley said.

On the other hand, a Reagan signing statement changing the rules on federal contracting led to lawsuits by contractors and a threat by Congress to cut Justice Department funding before the administration retreated, said Portland State's Cooper.

Clinton had a similar run-in with Congress, and ultimately backed down, after issuing a signing statement in 1999 questioning lawmakers' authority over the appointment of an official to oversee security at nuclear weapons laboratories.

Bush also backpedaled when members of Congress challenged his narrow definition of whistle-blower protections for federal employees in a 2002 signing statement. But that was a rare exception for a president who has "taken every opportunity to push the envelope,'' Cooper said.

In an article for the Presidential Studies Quarterly last September, Cooper wrote that Bush's statements typically give the widest possible scope to presidential powers, and the narrowest scope to congressional powers, and are replete with catch-phrases that may offer barely a clue about how he plans to implement the law.

An example was the March 9 statement on the Patriot Act's FBI reporting requirements, which Bush said he would interpret "in a manner consistent with the president's constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch and to withhold information the disclosure of which would impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative processes of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties.''

Most of those phrases recur in other signing statements, particularly the "unitary executive branch,'' a much-debated concept of absolute presidential control over all federal agencies. Cooper said he found the phrase in 82 Bush signing statements from 2001 through 2004.

Bush's language can be even more opaque. In signing the Export-Import Bank Reauthorization Act of 2002, he said he would implement one section "in a manner consistent with the requirements of equal protection under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.''

The phrase, which Cooper found in 15 first-term signing statements, is shorthand for the administration's view that all affirmative action based on race or sex is unconstitutional. In this case, it meant that Bush would not implement a provision requiring the Export-Import Bank to try to increase loans to businesses owned by minorities or women.

Occasionally, a signing statement attracts enough attention to become a public challenge to congressional lawmaking power. That was the case in December, when Bush claimed the authority to disregard Congress' newly enacted ban on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of captives held abroad, citing his role as head of the "unitary executive branch'' and his powers as commander in chief.

The measure's authors, Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and John Warner, R-Va., responded by promising "strict oversight to monitor the administration's implementation of the new law.'' They didn't explain how they planned to detect abuse at far-flung and sometimes-secret prisons, and so far they have not held any hearings.

Likewise, Leahy, despite his criticism of Bush's Patriot Act signing statement, has not demanded a congressional inquiry. Last week, in response to an article on signing statements in the Boston Globe, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said he would invite administration officials and legal scholars to a hearing on the topic in June.

"Congress runs a real danger, in the long run, of diminishing (its) prerogatives'' by failing to object forcefully, said Kelley, who generally supports a president's authority to interpret the Constitution. He said Congress should draw the line, at some point, by threatening funding cutoffs or other measures that the president can't ignore.

Bush seems to be succeeding in a strategy "to put forth these extravagant claims and try to intimidate and cow Congress,'' said Bruce Fein, a conservative commentator and former Justice Department official under Reagan. "He can go to court and say Congress remained silent.''

Eastman, of Chapman University, said the critics have it backward. Congress, he said, always wants to tie the president's hands, and Bush is merely defending his constitutional authority.

"He has drawn the same line that every other president has drawn,'' Eastman said. "He is exercising broader powers than other presidents have needed to exercise because he is in the middle of a war.''

Nevertheless, it would be wise to lower the temperature and avoid unnecessary confrontations with Congress, said another administration supporter, Douglas Kmiec, who was a leader in developing signing statements in Reagan's Justice Department.

Signing statements were "intended to let the chief executive exercise some initial control over what his subordinates were doing in the implementation of statutes,'' said Kmiec, now a Pepperdine University law professor. "It's morphed into a general opportunity to say, 'I'm president,' over and over again.''
 

I thought this article was pretty poor and more of a Bush-bash than anything else.

It makes all sorts of references to Bush, but when it talks about the alleged misuse of the treaty power (citing NAFTA as the example) it doesn't state that Clinton was responsible for NAFTA.

In fact, the only reference to Clinton is to show that he issued more citations against employers who hire illegals than Bush.

I also didn't like this statement:

The president's fast-track authority is set to expire next year, more than 30 years after its passage. It is no coincidence that the United States has now posted a trade deficit for 30 consecutive years.

So did the trade deficit start the same year the fast-track authority was given? Is there proof that there is a correlation between fast-track authority and a trade deficit?

I think the article tries to blame too much on the President, and specifically Bush.

At any rate, I do agree with the last quote from Abraham Lincoln:

As Abraham Lincoln said, if bad laws exist they should "be repealed as soon as possible, still, while they continue in force, for the sake of example they should be religiously observed."

I think many of us are suspicious that this is just Bush-bashing by the media because there are way too many generalizations. The signing statements are a perfect example. All I see are quotes about how Bush has used them more than any other President, but I never see any specific examples of where he said a law is unconstitutional, and why the law is constitutional. I would like to see more discussion of specific instances where Bush is not upholding the law. If he is in violation of his oath, he should be held accountable.
 
Separation of Powers

In threads like these, so many of us simply beat our breasts, defending our personal, biased ideologies. Defenders and detractors of this current President repeat these biases ad nauseum.

For me, it's simple (and I claim no objectivity here). It's about the separation of powers as envisioned by Montesquieu and as written into our Constitution.

From Wikipedia (a summary as good as any):

The separation of powers (or trias politica, a term coined by French political thinker Montesquieu) is a model for the governance of the state. This same principle is applied in non-political realms under the term separation of duties.

Montesquieu proposed division of political power between an executive, a legislature, and a judiciary. Under this model, each branch has separate and independent powers and areas of responsibility; however, each branch is also able to place limits on the power exerted by the other branches.


Throughout history, the wrestling of power among the three branches has always been in play, but during this administration, it seems to me way out of balance in favor of the administration. I think this is dangerous to our form of democracy.
 
I read the article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...sn=001&sc=1000

I think it is best summarized by this paragraph:

"This administration has been much more systematic and much broader in scope'' in signing statements, Cooper said, on its "path to expand presidential powers at the expense of Congress and the courts.''

I'm not sure that the signing statements show the President is trying to take power at the expense of the courts, but it seems pretty clear that the signing statements boil down to a power grab between the President and the Legislature. We have 3 equal branches of government, but there is bound to be some power-grab attempts when one branch feels "less equal" than another branch.

I'll respond to a few statements in the article, but I don't have time for a full rebuttal.

President Bush signed a military spending bill in December that included a hard-fought amendment banning the cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of foreign prisoners. Then he put a statement in the Federal Register asserting his right to ignore the ban when necessary, in his judgment, to protect Americans from terrorism.

I'm not an expert on the President's powers during the states of emergency, but in Virginia the governor has pretty broad powers during declared states of emergency. I would think that the President has similar powers. Seems to me that is what the President is referring to, but more than a paragraph in a news article is needed to fully discuss the issues involved.

In March, Bush signed a renewal of search and surveillance provisions of the USA Patriot Act and said at a public ceremony that civil liberties would be protected by a series of new amendments. Then he quietly inserted another statement in the Federal Register that virtually nullified one of those amendments, a requirement that the administration report to Congress on the FBI's use of its powers under the Patriot Act to seize library, bookstore and business records.

Sounds to me like the President wanted the Patriot Act passed (we all know that), but that he didn't agree with certain parts of it. I think it comes down to a power grab over the executive privilege. Congress wants to limit his privilege, Bush wants to expand it. I'm not an expert on executive privilege, but I think more than a paragraph of discussion in a news article is needed to fully discuss the issues involved.

Civics textbooks say presidents have two choices when Congress passes a bill that's not completely to their liking: They can sign it into law, or they can veto it and let Congress try to override them.

I think its funny that the article cites "civic textbooks" instead of an expert that can be further questioned. I'd like to see specific quotes from these "civic textbooks."

Other statements have scuttled affirmative action programs, rejected congressional criteria for spending federal money, and declared that Bush would follow laws affecting international affairs only to the extent that they respected "the constitutional authority of the president to conduct the nation's foreign relations.''

I'd like to see which affirmative action programs were scuttled. If it is really so blatent, why is the President not being sued to enforce teh law?

I don't have a problem with Bush saying that he will follow laws affecting international affairs only to the extent that they respected "the constitutional authority of the president to conduct the nation's foreign relations.''

Among the most common targets of Bush's signing statements have been laws requiring his administration to disclose information, issue reports, appoint officials with specified qualifications,
(emphasis added).

I think this shows pretty well that this boils down to a battle over power between Bush and Congress. I thought it was pretty clear that the President gets to decide how to appoint, and if the Senate doesn't like it they just vote not to give their advice and consent. Seeing the legislature trying to tell the President what sort of person to appoint looks pretty clearly like a power grab to me.

Anyway, I don't think the signing statements are really relevant. Again, I think it comes down to specific laws which must or must not be executed. My guess is that it is pretty hard to show that the President is in clear violation (using any one law), so the media is trying to use numbers to imply guilt. Before I am willing to find someone guilty, I want to see specific examples (and full discussions of each), not statements saying "he has done it a lot."
 
Bruefener, you wrote:

"I'm not an expert on the President's powers during the states of emergency."

I submit to you, that the powers granted the President by the Constitution are the same during states of emergency as they are when everyone is holding hands and being all kissy face.

I see nothing in the Bill of Rights that says "If a President decides to void rights I through X set out herein because he feels there is a "state of emergency", then it is okie dokie.

No, I don't see that.

I think the powers of the President are clearly set out, the powers of Congress are set out, and the rights of the people are set out clearly.

To say the powers of the President are different during times of a "state of emergency" is to say that the Bill of Rights is not law should the President simply declare a state of emergency.

Keep in mind, the idiots in New Orleans' Police Department decided to simply begin a wholesale gun confiscation due to thinking that a "state of emergency" voids the Bill of Rights of the Constitution. The rights are still there, no matter what a single government employee says. (No matter if he is the President, or a Chief of Police of a backwater municipality, violating the Bill of Rights at any time, is a crime)
 
I submit to you, that the powers granted the President by the Constitution are the same during states of emergency as they are when everyone is holding hands and being all kissy face.

I didn't mean to imply that the President's powers under the Constitution are magically enlarged in times of emergency. In Virginia, the legislature has passed certain statutes giving the governor those powers. That is, the legislative branch passed a law that effectively gives the executive power to act for the legislature in times of emergency. Of course, there are limits (at least in Virginia) on what the governor can and cannot do.

A similar situation is mentioned in the article BrennanKG referred to:

But if these so-called free-trade agreements are not to be considered treaties, then they are clearly within the power of Congress, not the president. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to "regulate Commerce with foreign nations." But Congress has given up its exclusive constitutional authority to negotiate and regulate trade agreements by ceding "fast-track authority" to the executive branch.

As I said before, I'm not an expert on Presidential authority/power during times of emergency. I realize the Constitution does not change during times of emergency, but the President may have been given power by Congress during times of emergency.

It seems to me that if Congress wants to limit those powers perhaps they should repeal the law that gave the powers to the President, not pass a law that seems to conflict with the past law, but does not repeal it. It seems to me that when two laws reasonably conflict, the President is ok in saying that he will follow one and not the other (unless the judicial branch says otherwise).

At any rate, we have strayed well from the presidential signing statements into more specific issues. I think that if we are to criticize the President it should be on specific issues/acts. However, a discussion of these specific issues/acts is best done in another thread.
 
I've lost interest in debating issues regarding the Bush administration because the camps have pretty much sorted themselves out. A small contingent of people still support Bush, and seem hell-bent on continuing to support him regardless of what new information comes to light. He could be caught in the act of molesting an alter boy and they would make excuses for him. Another contingent on the opposite extreme hate the man so much that they have driven themselves crazy with hatred (see the story about the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize who said, "I would love to kill George Bush"). Most folks initially sitting on the fence have moved into one camp or the other (mostly the anti-Bush camp, judging by poll numbers). The extremists who seem intent on supporting Bush even if he admits he eats live human babies call anyone who criticizes the administration "Bush bashers." The extremists who would demonize Bush even if he turned water to wine call Bush supporters "Bush apologists." The rest of us in the middle just shake our heads and think you've all lost your freaking minds.

Ultimately history will judge the Bush administration. So far history hasn't been kind. Iraq is an unqualified disaster, and everyone who has claimed otherwise has been proven wrong. Many dismissed the Valerie Plame affair as a non-issue, but it may well lead to Scooter Libby serving time in a federal "pound-me" prison. Many claimed that Bush's foriegn policies would not have disasterous effects, but now we find ourselves impotent to calm the chaos in the Middle East and gas is $3.00 per gallon and rising. Perhaps all this will turn around. Perhaps the administration will surprise us and prove that there is some sound logic behind its apparent madness. If this happens, I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Ultimately it doesn't matter what I or any of us here thinks because what will be will be.
 
Ira,

I'm sorry, but I can't get excited over Bush signing a bill and putting :neener: or :cuss: or :banghead: or anything else in the margin.

To me, it is not a matter of a President's words, but of his actions. I don't care if a President talks big, but if a President orders the direct violation of a law passed by Congress, he should be impeached for his action.
 
Well, after having a little more time to think about it and talk about it, I would have to change my earlier opinion. The big distinction between Clinton v. New York and signing statements is that the line item veto made actual changes to the law as written by Congress.

What Bush is doing here is simply explaining how he intends to use his enforcement powers to carry out the laws Congress has passed. The actual law passed by Congress hasn't been changed. That in itself is not unconstitutional any more than sending them a letter saying the same thing would be.

The real issue is whether or not Bush is doing something unconstitutional when he goes beyond filling in the grey areas of law passed by Congress to say "I am not going to follow this provision of this bill because it is unconstitutional." Is he just exercising his enforcement powers the way the Founders intended (and they did intend for there to be conflict between the branches) or is he failing to faithfully execute the laws of the land?

In any case, Congress has plenty of ways to reign in the President if they don't like this behavior. They control the budget for one - just like a surly teen who won't come home in time for curfew, Congress can cut off the allowance. They can even target specific funding in areas where they disagree with the President's enforcement. They can also impeach if necessary.

I think giving Congress the ability to sue is a bad idea. From the very beginning of the country, the Supreme Court has refused to issue advisory opinions and probably with good reason - it concentrates a lot more power in the hands of nine unelected men. One of the whole points of standing is that you have to have actual harm that was caused by the law in question. To me, this is a pretty good way to sort out the important cases. I'd also much prefer that Congress and the President not spend huge chunks of tax money litigating separation of powers issues where nobody has standing because nobody has been harmed.

Also the President definitely wants these fights. He is deliberately working to expand the power of the Executive. In some areas, this isn't a bad thing... some of the restrictions on the power of the Executive only date back to the Nixon era and a lot of them are arguable. The bill detailing how often immigration checkpoints have to be changed is a perfect example of Congress getting too big for its britches and stepping outside their role under separation of powers.

On the one hand, I think the President should be using his veto power - especially when he disagrees with the entire bill or substantial portions of it. On the other hand, oftentimes there are good bills where the choice is to veto the entire bill and all of the good or simply note your opposition to the constitutionality of a limited provision so that if it does go to the Court the distinction is there.
 
As Abraham Lincoln said, if bad laws exist they should "be repealed as soon as possible, still, while they continue in force, for the sake of example they should be religiously observed."

Sic semper tyrannis...
 
the balance of powers still works, but only if partisan politics is avoided.

legislative makes laws, executive enforces, judiciary interprets the law in cases brought forth

what happens if the executive doesn't enforce the laws as congress wrote them? impeachment

good luck getting that to happen if the executive enjoys majority priviledge.
 
In each of the last three Administrations, the Department of Justice has advised the President that the Constitution provides him with the authority to decline to enforce a clearly unconstitutional law.(7) This advice is, we believe, consistent with the views of the Framers.

I'll be sure to cite this at my court-martial hearing when I'm ordered to
Iraq for a second time in violation of 10 USC 12301/12302 and Article 1
Section 8 of the US Constitution. I'll be sure to cite it again before I'm
blind-folded and my tovarischi (comrades) shoot me. :rolleyes:
 
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