I just purchased two boxes of Code 53722 speer 38 special non +P gold dot 125 HP's. I own a colt cobra older 1966 model and I do not want to use +P ammo in this gun. I do have some 125 HP nyclads and use those, but I am always looking for something a little better with more penetration. Has anyone tested these rounds for velocity, expansion and penetration. I don't want to go with a 110 bullet, I feel is too light. I don't want to use the old wadcutter, which I know will not expand. Has anyone tried these gold dots? The hollow point is as big as the 135 +P short barrel load, which I use in my 442 S&W. Don't know if these are new or older design. Anyone tested these?
Speer 38 special Non +P gold dots
- Thread starter cocojo
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
I don't see any .38 Special ammo on the Speer site other than the +P stuff so I can't answer your question. It would be great if it's a new line that didn't get updated on the site yet because there are a alot of good old guns out there who's owners don't want to stress with +P ammo. There are very few standard SD .38 rounds available these days.
wcwhitey
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I bought my Dad a box of 110 grain Hydrashoks standard pressure, non +P. They were for his old Colt Agent, same reasoning as you. I did a bit of research at the time and do not recall seeing them offer a non +P loading either. He had it loaded for years with 158 grain RNL. I knew that had to be changed. Bill
I found they were tested by firearmstactical, which gave velocity average of 800 in 2 inch guns and the expansion was about 60 caliber. The 4 lair denim was not tested. I don't know where the four lair denim test came from, but I don't wear four lairs of denim. I wear mostly cotton. I am not saying it's wrong, but I wear a tee shirt, sweat shirt and fleese or light jacket and fleese. I never understood this test. Four lairs of cotton would be more realistic I think. By the way the round is coded at 53722, run that. How about leather jacket test.
I feel like an idiot denim is cotton, I believe.
I feel like an idiot denim is cotton, I believe.
Donut
Member
Well I'll be damned! It looks like cocojo just found what I (and it seems like a few others) could't! Where'd you find it for sale?
The information on the round is on Federal's site, under "Law Enforcement": http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section=2&page=pages/ccispeer/ccispeer_GoldDot.asp (yeilded by googling "Speer 53722")
However, the 125 gr standard pressure round is advertised at 865 fps muzzle(through a 4-inch, vented barrel), which is only 208 ft-lbs. If it truly does shoot at only 800fps (2in barrel?) that's only ~177ish ft-lbs (I rounded at the seventh digt on the mass calculation).
I've chosen the Federal P38HS3G (Under their "Law Enforcement Ammunition" section) 110gr. round for a standard pressure load. It's advetised muzzle velocity (again through a 4-inch barrel, which happens to be the same barrel length as my PPS) is 1000 fps, with 245 ft-lbs. The only place I can find it is at CheaperThanDirt, but for ~$13/50, not to shabby.
There is also the Federal "Premium Personal Defense" round, PD38HS3H, branded as "low recoil," which has the same 110gr. projectile, but fires at a slower velocity, 980 fps, but still yeilds 235 ft-lbs of energy, still ~11.5% more energy that the Gold Dots are advertised as having.
I'd be interested to see a test of these side-by side with the Federal load(s). It's slim pickins for standard pressure .38 Special SD ammo, so the more loads out there the merrier.
The information on the round is on Federal's site, under "Law Enforcement": http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section=2&page=pages/ccispeer/ccispeer_GoldDot.asp (yeilded by googling "Speer 53722")
However, the 125 gr standard pressure round is advertised at 865 fps muzzle(through a 4-inch, vented barrel), which is only 208 ft-lbs. If it truly does shoot at only 800fps (2in barrel?) that's only ~177ish ft-lbs (I rounded at the seventh digt on the mass calculation).
I've chosen the Federal P38HS3G (Under their "Law Enforcement Ammunition" section) 110gr. round for a standard pressure load. It's advetised muzzle velocity (again through a 4-inch barrel, which happens to be the same barrel length as my PPS) is 1000 fps, with 245 ft-lbs. The only place I can find it is at CheaperThanDirt, but for ~$13/50, not to shabby.
There is also the Federal "Premium Personal Defense" round, PD38HS3H, branded as "low recoil," which has the same 110gr. projectile, but fires at a slower velocity, 980 fps, but still yeilds 235 ft-lbs of energy, still ~11.5% more energy that the Gold Dots are advertised as having.
I'd be interested to see a test of these side-by side with the Federal load(s). It's slim pickins for standard pressure .38 Special SD ammo, so the more loads out there the merrier.
I was looking for a standard velocity round and headed to my gun shop in NH and noticed five boxes of the stuff. Looked on box no where did it say +P, so I bought two boxes. Haven't tried them out yet but looking forward to it. Check out the firearmstactical brief number nine, I think that is the same round as this. Good expansion and penetration about 10 inches no cloth. Anyway they do make a 125 HP gold dot. The hollow cavity is just as big as the 135 short barrel ammo. Don't know if it's better than the Nyclad 125 standard Vel load or not. Now I have both to test.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The only reason you get the higher velocities from the 110 gr bullet is because of the 110 gr bullet. IMO that is a very light bullet especially from a .38 Spl. It's a given that the lighter bullet will travel faster with the same charge as the heavier bullet. I really don't even like the 125 gr bullets and would rather fire a 158 gr bullet but they just aren't readily available. I have settled upon the 135 gr Gold Dot SB round because it was specifically designed for a >2" barrel so I trust it is probably the best round for SD at the moment. I'm sure the other top companies will answer the challenge soon and the fun of choosing will start all over again!! 
Donut
Member
But we - those of us with the Colt Agents, Cobras, Police Positive Specials and the like - don't have the luxury of firing +P ammo, which the 135gr Gold Dot is. We are stuck with heavy and slow or light and fast. The higher Kenetic Energy of a lighter, faster bullet seems to me to be a better combo. That's just my opinion, though.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Donut,
I wasn't trying to minimize you problem, I was only stating the reason for my choice. I was carrying 125 gr Remington rounds and 129 gr Federal rounds in my J frame before I found the Gold Dot SB ammo too. Sometimes my thoughts mix because I have a J frame for carry and a 4" .357 Mag I load with .38 Spl for HD. I like the heavier round in the house gun but agree with the 125 gr round in older .38 carry revolver.
I wasn't trying to minimize you problem, I was only stating the reason for my choice. I was carrying 125 gr Remington rounds and 129 gr Federal rounds in my J frame before I found the Gold Dot SB ammo too. Sometimes my thoughts mix because I have a J frame for carry and a 4" .357 Mag I load with .38 Spl for HD. I like the heavier round in the house gun but agree with the 125 gr round in older .38 carry revolver.
Donut
Member
No worries. I was more or less just venting, as I think I'm about to do now, as well. LOL. I just wish that there were more options for the standard-pressure .38 Special crowd.
I couple weeks ago I ran across a site that listed the .38 Special CorBon DPX round as standard pressure. I thought it was too good to be true, and an email exchange with CorBon confirmed that it, in fact, was too good to be true; It's a +P round.
They really dont make a round with decent weight JHP bullet that carries enough velocity to give it the KE numbers I'd like to see. Maybe I'm weighing the round's KE more than I should be, but would it be so hard for Speer to make a load with the 135gr Gold dot in standard pressure that would give it maybe 900 fps out of a 4-inch? That'd net a KE in the mid-240s (243.5 roughly) which is about the energy of the 110 gr bullet at 1000 fps. That is a round that I would not be making any compromises with.
I couple weeks ago I ran across a site that listed the .38 Special CorBon DPX round as standard pressure. I thought it was too good to be true, and an email exchange with CorBon confirmed that it, in fact, was too good to be true; It's a +P round.
They really dont make a round with decent weight JHP bullet that carries enough velocity to give it the KE numbers I'd like to see. Maybe I'm weighing the round's KE more than I should be, but would it be so hard for Speer to make a load with the 135gr Gold dot in standard pressure that would give it maybe 900 fps out of a 4-inch? That'd net a KE in the mid-240s (243.5 roughly) which is about the energy of the 110 gr bullet at 1000 fps. That is a round that I would not be making any compromises with.
I have seen that Gold Dot load in the marketplace but have never tried it. Actually, have just about forgotten about it in searching for an acceptable standard pressure .38 defensive load. My current thinking is in warmer weather, 125 standard Nyclads first choice (I have a fair number) followed by Federal P38HS3G or Federal PD38HS3H, second choice, and Winchester 110 Silvertips, third choice. In cold weather, Magtech 38E, 158 grain SJHP in standard pressure (807 fps - 4 inch) as first choice, followed by any quality 158 grain LSWC, second choice. I believe that my old-style airweights could handle a fair number of many "plus P" loads even though I avoid them, but I do believe the Speer 135 short barrel +P load is too hot for older alloy-framed revolvers, even though I think it is a great load. It's operating pressure is at least 20,000 psi and maybe 21,500. I think that is too much for my guns, IMO.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
My J frame is an 15 oz. alloy S&W M638 and it's rated for .38 +P ammo.
"My J frame is an 15 oz. alloy S&W M638 and it's rated for .38 +P ammo."
Yup, the new ones are. When Smith came out with the 642-1, they did not advertise it being plus P rated. About the same time Taurus began advertising their .38s as plus P rated. Smith began doing the same. I called about mine, which was not marked plus P, and was told it was plus P rated. the newer alloy-framed revolvers have some changes. They are about 10% heavier; the topstrap is noticeably thicker; the cylinder stop is integral to the frame; and the corners of the cylinder window are more rounded to reduce the risk of cracking at a stress point. I don't know if the alloy is changed. There is much divergent opinion about using plus P in the older style frames but one thing is clear: the older frames are not factory plus P rated. The newer ones are. Some plus P loads, not all, produce significantly greater pressure than standard loads. Corbon, Speer's new "short barrel" 135 grain, Buffalo Bore, etc. Each person has to decide but it is clear that older alloy small-frame revolvers are generally not factory plus-P rated. It is also clear that hot loads can stretch the frame of alloy revolvers. How hot is "hot"? How much can they take without damage? I don't know, but perfectly understand and agree with the desire of many to preserve, as much as possible, some fine revolvers which likely will never be made again. I, too, wish there were more good choices in standard pressure and lament the passing of the Nyclad line, but I doubt we'll ever see much effort in that area again with newer revolvers being made to handle plus P (or advertised that way anyway ).
Yup, the new ones are. When Smith came out with the 642-1, they did not advertise it being plus P rated. About the same time Taurus began advertising their .38s as plus P rated. Smith began doing the same. I called about mine, which was not marked plus P, and was told it was plus P rated. the newer alloy-framed revolvers have some changes. They are about 10% heavier; the topstrap is noticeably thicker; the cylinder stop is integral to the frame; and the corners of the cylinder window are more rounded to reduce the risk of cracking at a stress point. I don't know if the alloy is changed. There is much divergent opinion about using plus P in the older style frames but one thing is clear: the older frames are not factory plus P rated. The newer ones are. Some plus P loads, not all, produce significantly greater pressure than standard loads. Corbon, Speer's new "short barrel" 135 grain, Buffalo Bore, etc. Each person has to decide but it is clear that older alloy small-frame revolvers are generally not factory plus-P rated. It is also clear that hot loads can stretch the frame of alloy revolvers. How hot is "hot"? How much can they take without damage? I don't know, but perfectly understand and agree with the desire of many to preserve, as much as possible, some fine revolvers which likely will never be made again. I, too, wish there were more good choices in standard pressure and lament the passing of the Nyclad line, but I doubt we'll ever see much effort in that area again with newer revolvers being made to handle plus P (or advertised that way anyway
).vanilla_gorilla
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I think of the choices, I'd opt for lower energy and instead ensure that I had adequate penetration. But then again, I think heavier bullets are almost always better.
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