Spitzers in lever actions.

[CLP]

I understand why they're not loaded in lever actions (with the exception of Browning's BLR and a couple of other lever guns). For hunting purposes though, is there a reason why folks don't load two ballistically superior spitzer bullets- one in the chamber and one in the tube magazine? There's no risk of the bullet hitting he primer of a bullet in front of it. I don't hunt big game, but I don't think most deer require more than two bullets and if a third was needed it could easily be chambered safely after the one in the magazine was chambered. Is it an issue about the bullet seating out further closer to the lands and causing too much pressure? I know that a publishers of loading manuals wouldn't go near this one for fear of litigation. Maybe it's just too easy to mistakenly load two in the magazine? I'm curious what ballistic potential of a 150gr BTHP would be compared to the typical round nose. Obviously a middle ground has been attempted with the flex tip, but I never read anything about anyone trying modern spitzer-style bullets. Not looking for load info if this has been done, just curious if it has (and how common and successful it's been if it has been attempted).

 

[rcmodel]

No reason at all, one in the chamber and only one in the mag tube is perfectly safe.

The problem with most Spitzers is, they are designed to expand at 3,000+ FPS.
And the 30-30 carbine is pushing them at a little over 2,000.

The gain in trajectory over the typical range of a 30-30 RN zeroed at 200 yards is about an inch flatter trajectory at midrange, or 100 yards.

You can't stand on your hind legs and tell that minor trajectory improvement with a 30-30.

In short, a full mag tube of ammo with bullets designed for the 30-30 will kill you more deer then two spitzers designed for a 30-06 / 300 Mag that won't expand properly.

rc

 

[Kernel]

You seem aware of all the issues with spritzers in a .30-30 lever action. I think one of the reasons it never caught on was there was never a big perceived advantage. Existing round/flat nosed bullets worked well enough on appropriately sized game animals, and no one really considered those rifles viable for long range shooting anyway. Those traditional round/flat nosed .30-30 bullets look kinda of "fuddy-duddy" but they are actually highly engineered to perform at .30-30 velocities.

 

[witchhunter]

RC and Kernal, know. The old 30/30 has worked just fine for well over 100 years. The ammo was designed for this and only this. We don't need to reinvent the wheel with it. Aim, Bang, mmmm venison for dinner. Just like grandpa done!

 

[CLP]

Ha! Wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel- just curious. I didn't realize the gains were so minimal.

 

[blarby]

And you can do one in the chamber, followed by a flat point, with a spitzer in front of that one, for three.

 

[rcmodel]

Spitzer bullets only offer a real advantage in trajectory at longer ranges of 300 plus.
When started out much faster.

And even then, hunting bullets must be designed to perform properly at those kinds of long ranges, without blowing up on close range shots at very high velocity.

It's more complicated then it seems at first glance.

rc

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Tubular magazine safe spitzers like LEVERevolution Have been around for years. I've used them.

Mike

 

[Boho]

The lever FTX bullets can reach a MV of up to 2400 from a 20 " barrel and can expand well at 200 yds. What more can you ask for realistically?

 

[jmr40]

The lever FTX bullets can reach a MV of up to 2400 from a 20 " barrel and can expand well at 200 yds. What more can you ask for realistically?

The gains from the rubber tipped bullets is mostly smoke and mirrors. The 2400 fps is from 24" barrels. You can get the exact same speeds from RN bullets in equal length barrels.

Hornady uses some deceptive techniques to make their rubber tipped bullets look better on paper. Every other bullet manufacturer shows their 30-30 bullets with a 100 yard zero and corresponding bullet drops. Hornady does not give a zero range, they just show the bullets as being about .2" high at 200 yards and a little over a foot low at 300 yards. If you take a round nose 30-30 bullet at the same speed and with the same zero it only have about 1.5" more drop at 300 yards than the rubber tipped bullets.

 

[mdi]

For reloadinh my 30-30 single shot, using spitzer bullets, I refer to the Contender section in my reloading manuals. I don't hunt, but a little research will show a few bullets that will preform at 30-30 velocities (I'm using A-Max bullets)...

 

[Bezoar]

primarily it can be considered a feed issue. some brands, models, and even particularly some production years can have very big differences in what overall length the action with cycle through.

why doyou so so many posts about "how do i make my lever gun cycle this cartridge length"

to get the actual increase in performance with improved bullets, you would need to give 90% of people a really good scope. and the most popular lever guns use a design that forces you to put the scope far away from the shooter, or so far above the reciever. That alone reduces any increase in accuracy from using optics.

 

[Boho]

jmr40, im just curious how much time you've spent developing a load with the FTX bullet. Personally I have achieved 2400fps with a 20" 336 using the lvr powder at less than max load. That bullet flies flatter and faster than any other bullet I've tried with an equal powder charge. It averages 5" higher at 100 yds. When I replied I wasn't repeating the hype I was speaking from experience with that particular bullet.

 

[buck460XVR]

It averages 5" higher at 100 yds.

Are you saying it prints 5'' higher on paper @ 100 yards or has 5'' less drop @ 100 yards?

 

[medalguy]

I've always understood, possibly incorrectly, that the .30-30 was a good rifle for short distances in brush country, say under 150 yards, not on the open plains where shots of 300 - 500 yards are common. I shoot my 94 at ranges of under 100 yards in pretty heavy timber with the 170 grain Sierra flat nose. Given this, the RN heavy bullets are not as easily deflected by grass and small branches. A spitzer, lighter in weight and faster, would tend to deflect a little bit more. So what would be the perceived advantage of the spritzer bullet?

 

[Boho]

Buck460xvr I'm assuming that it is less drop. Not sure of the point blank range of that load, but considering the difference of ballistic coefficient between this one and traditional 30_30 bullets I think the bullet may actually still be climbing. I need to find a range longer than 100yds.

Medalguy, yes you're correct. When I purchased the gun I was hunting brush and short range, and the gun served me well, then my sis n law got married and my new bro n law has land that I get to hunt. Its very hilly and you shoot across canyons. The first trip I couldn't make 160-200 yd shots across those canyons. I developed a FTX load just for this one situation. Last season it worked.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I got the bright idea to try and work up some 125 grain ballistic tip loads for the ol' Marlin 336. They shot fine, but once you chamber one, you can't eject it. It was too long. I didn't play with the seating depth any to try and fix it, I just decided to do what rcmodel said and use bullets designed for the .30-30.

 

[Hardtarget]

Some years ago I loaded several rounds like you are thinking about. I did not hunt with those rounds...just used them on paper. They shot fine. I did only load one in the tube and one chambered.

This year I killed a deer at ( give or take) fifty yards. One shot and he dropped right there. I used the very standard .30-30 style 170 gr. Worked great! I will use the same next hunt.

Mark

 

[Mule]

Once upon a time, Sierra built a 135gr, .308" spitzer intended for 30 caliber handguns. Sadly it is no longer available. I took several whitetails with that bullet loaded in 30-30, fired from a Marlin 336. I hunted one and one, chamber and magazine. I wish they would bring it back.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

ive done what the op poster said lots of times. 125 grn, one in the pipe and one in the mag. only trouble is, it just turns it into a 7.62x39. who wants to do that? 150 grn bullets are where the 30-30 shines.

n ow for plinking the 100 grn hornady shortjackets are prob the most accurate bullet i can get for my 30-30 rifles. but they seem to be on backorder now where they used to be common as dirt

 

[R.W.Dale]

Buck460xvr I'm assuming that it is less drop. Not sure of the point blank range of that load, but considering the difference of ballistic coefficient between this one and traditional 30_30 bullets I think the bullet may actually still be climbing. I need to find a range longer than 100yds.

What is the exact average MV over your chrony and what is your zero range with this load? Then what is the POI 100 yds from there?


Just because the point of impact is higher doesn't mean anything at all beyond the fact that it's a load the rifle isn't zero'd for.

With different loads POI can literally move up, down, left, right or even diagonally just because of bbl harmonics. Each gun is different but it's not unusual for the SLOWER loads to actually print higher than fast ones due to recoil and in bbl dwell times.


Unlike most here I HAVE fired quite a few spitzers out of various bolt action and even revolver 30-30's. I can say unequivocally that inside the impact velocity envelope you can generate and the accuracy potential available to most 30-30 rifles spitzers offer no advantages whatsoever over FN or RN bullets.

 

[R.W.Dale]

It's pretty easy to calculate the difference using my "ballistic" app


Assuming the IMO unrealistic 2400mv and a 100yd zero the drop to 200 is as follows

160g hornady FTX .395bc--5.74"

150g Sierra FN .224bc--6.47

So the difference @200 yds is a whopping three quarters of an inch

 

[Boho]

As I stated in the previous post I do not know the point blank range of this load. I do not have a range over 100 yards. I do know the avg velocity of my shots were 2386. My gun is zeroed with a load using IMR 4895 & the sierra 150gr fn with an avg velocity or 2192. I understand what you are saying using a ballistic calculator. Now tell me how to safely get the rn/fn bullets out the barrel @ 2386 avg without blowing off case heads. I did not intend this to become a debate/sales pitch for lvr powder and FTX bullets. I was simply stating for the OP and others who stated that hornadys data may be flawed that you can achieve/exceed their published data. See Hornady 8th edition for results test fired with a 20" barrel. 2400 is realistic with that powder/bullet combo. Try it yourself, you'll probably be real surprised.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Now tell me how to safely get the rn/fn bullets out the barrel @ 2386 avg without blowing off case heads

......The same way you do the FTX bullets?

A fn bullet will actually leave a little more unused case volume because more of the bullet is outside the case. Start low and work up accordingly


I get you like the FTX bullets. All I'm saying is that aside from aesthetics they do absolutely nothing special. AT ALL.

If you have a 2400fps load then more power to ya in which case you can have a 2400fps load with rn or fp bullets too