Springfield 1873 loads.....

[Ks5shooter]

Ive acquired a very nice and tight 1873 trapdoor 45-70.My question is ,what is a good lead bullet load using smokeless powder.Naturally I want it to be safe.The gun is tight and and good for shooting. What say ye? thanks Don

 

[shafter]

I would hesitate to use anything smokeless in an original Trapdoor. You would be better off replicating a period correct black power load.

 

[orpington]

I second that.

 

[Don McDowell]

If you just absolutely must use smokeless in an original trapdoor, I would suggest you delve into the Lyman or other reloading handbook, Hogdons , Alliants, or Accurate's online web data, or perhaps take a subscription to Loaddata.com

 

[ArchAngelCD]

About a year and a half ago I bought a Trapdoor and i have been loading for it successfully. I'm using only 405gr lead bullets and I tried a few smokeless powders and settles on AA5744. I would be using SR-4759 but it's going to be discontinued at the end of 2014. Another popular powder for the Trapdoor and 45-70 in general is IMR4198. I like AA5744 better. The recoil feels lighter and it's very accurate.

Depending upon which source you use the Max recommended pressures will change. I like to keep the pressures at or below 18,000 PSI or at the most 19,000 PSI. (the Accurate Arms limit) There are several sources for good 405gr cast bullets, one is Missouri bullets. They sell them in boxes of 200 for a fair price.
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=81&category=6&secondary=&keywords=

I'm not an expert on the Trapdoor but I have been playing around with loads for a while now. If you have any questions just ask. If i have the answer it's yours too, if not I'm sure someone here will have the answer...

 

[Swede]

I've been shooting smokeless for years now in a trapdoor. I started out using 5744, about all I use now is Trail Boss. I also only use 405 gr lead bullets with a .030 vegetable wad. The wad isn't really necessary but helps reduce leading of the barrel. Black powder shooters use them kind of as an old time gas check. And they're cheap.
I use Trail Boss in the .45 colt also. The Blackhawk and Marlin Cowboy shoots to point of aim with it.

 

[Stormin.40]

I have an original Trapdoor as well. I purchase H4198 originally to load with 405gr lead bullets but chickened out and have only loaded black powder cartridges. Many have and do shoot the originals with smokeless and if I choose to go that route I would probably look at AA5744. I use Penn Bullets both the 405gr and the 500gr, he uses soft alloy 20:1.

I don't know if you have the interest but loading Black Powder cartridges isn't all that hard and is just a blast to shoot, pun intended. I get the easy cleanup with smokeless but I just don't think I would ever shoot my trapdoor if it were not for the blast and smoke of the holy black.

 

[Sunray]

There are hordes of perfectly safe smokeless loads on Hodgdon's site. Using smokeless in a BP rifle is far from unusual or unsafe for the shooter or the rifle. Remember how litigious ya'll are and how terribly frightened U.S. manufacturers are of law suits.
Your space bar doesn't work.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I would use Trail Boss and try and duplicate the old BP performance.

 

[CLP]

Check Lymans Cast Bullet Handbook. They have about 10 loads specifically for old trapdoors but they recommend slugging your bore and also getting the rifle checked out by a gunsmith before firing. Their max pressure for these loads is 18K CUP.

 

[tark]

Smokeless powder will work just fine in Trap doors as long as it a proper load. Trail Boss is excellent. What isn't excellent is jacketed bullets in trap doors. Those old barrels are very soft. Stick to lead.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Great info thanks all keep it coming.

 

[Don McDowell]

Pressures generated by trailboss are way excessive to what most decent smokeless powders will produce in the 45-70's.
The thing to keep in mind when loading the original trapdoors, even the newest of them were built in about 1892, that's a lot of time on a piece of steel, it might hold up fine for another 120 some odd years, and it might let go thru a defect in the steel the next time the hammer falls...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Great info thanks all keep it coming.

What is this ammo going to be used for? Is it for range use and just for the fun of shooting a rifle that's 140 years old or are you going to use that rifle for hunting one time or another? (not that it matters all that much but for bullet weight)

 

[tark]

Don, where did you hear that? Trail Boss was DESIGNED to replace black powder! I got that straight from Mike Venturino; who knows a thing or two about shooting Black powder guns.

 

[Don McDowell]

Tark you are dead wrong. Trailboss was designed to give the CASS crowd the mousefart loads they want without the chance of a double or triple charge in the case, as can happen with many powders.
Take a look at Hogdons web data, you'll right quick see the stuff in the 45-70 runs right at firewall pressures, with about 2/3 the velocity of blackpowder.
Lyman's 47 manual shows blackpowder pressures topping out at around 12-14K cup.
This stuff about Trailboss being designed to replace blackpowder is going to get somebody hurt someday.

 

[Don McDowell]

Copied and pasted directly from Hogdons web page.
Trail Boss was designed specifically for low velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder but has some application in rifles. It is based on a whole new technology that allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation, and, most importantly, additional safety to the handloader.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Copied and pasted directly from Hogdons web page.
Trail Boss was designed specifically for low velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder but has some application in rifles. It is based on a whole new technology that allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation, and, most importantly, additional safety to the handloader.

It's really not all that simple...

According to Hodgdon you can't get enough Trail Boss into a case without compression to go overpressure. (Note I said without compression) A full case to the base of the bullet is safe according to Hodgdon. Yes, pressures will be slightly higher than with Black Powder but not high enough to damage the gun. (according to Hodgdon, not me)

Trail Boss was designed for low velocities, not low pressures but the pressures are not excessive either. That is, if you follow the rules and not compress the powder and break up the little donuts.

From Hodgdon:

As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol
cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets.
These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you
don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to
follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:

1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at
this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your
maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!

2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting
load.

3) Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate
reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail Boss Reduced Loads R&P.pdf

 

[Jim Watson]

Trail Boss is weak as well water for rifle loads.
The Hodgdon STARTING loads for TB in .45-70-300 or -385 develop 19400 CUP which is already over the usual recommendation for Trapdoors.
The STARTING load for TB in .45-70-405 is 12 grains for 24,500 CUP and only 971 fps. Not in MY Trapdoor, you're not.

4198 will give higher velocity at lower pressure.
5744 and 4759 are made for light RIFLE loads; Trail Boss is mostly for revolvers and pistol caliber carbines.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Trail Boss is weak as well water for rifle loads.
The Hodgdon STARTING loads for TB in .45-70-300 or -385 develop 19400 CUP which is already over the usual recommendation for Trapdoors.
The STARTING load for TB in .45-70-405 is 12 grains for 24,500 CUP and only 971 fps. Not in MY Trapdoor, you're not.

4198 will give higher velocity at lower pressure.
5744 and 4759 are made for light RIFLE loads; Trail Boss is mostly for revolvers and pistol caliber carbines.

I agree, I'm not a fan of Trail boss in rifle cartridges either. Funny thing is, now that Hodgdon will no longer offer SR-4759 for sale they are claiming Trail Boss will fill the void. I disagree but nothing i say of think will change what Hodgdon does.

I have also changed over to AA5744 since SR-4759 is going to be discontinued. I get very good results with AA5744 in the 45-70 and a few light rifle load applications... Oh well, Hodgdon's loss and Accurate's gain...

 

[Jim Watson]

I figure they are dropping the SR powders 4756, 4759, and 7625 as well as PB because they are niche products and probably a different manufacturing process. PB stands for Porous Base, for example.

Now if they would come up with a Nitro For Black powder with Trail Boss chemistry and low bulk density but burn rate and density correct for rifle ammo, they would have something.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Just gonna shoot this gun for target and plinking at the range.

 

[Don McDowell]

For fun ,target and plinking, it just doesn't get any better than 70 grs of 2f black under a 405 gr bullet.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

For fun ,target and plinking, it just doesn't get any better than 70 grs of 2f black under a 405 gr bullet.

I've never loaded BP cartridges, but even so, I would have to agree with this.
For range fun, shoot that thing with what it was made to shoot. Nothing like a two foot flame and an enormous cloud of smoke to add to the festivities.

 

[Slamfire]

I took my original 1881 trapdoor rifle rebuild out this weekend and shot a 405 grain LRN, 27.5 grains AA5744, R-P cases, WLR. AA5744 was developed to be used in these large blackpowder cases and the load level I am using has been OK in an original Martini Henry action and worked fine in the Trapdoor.

My trapdoor shot about 18" high at 86 yards (non standard range). I adjusted the ladder sight as low as it would go . I dipped my bullets into a can of Lubriplate 130 to reduce leading. This was messy but I got zero leading out of the long barrel, grease that was on the shoulder of the case was squeezed out into the action and I had to wipe it out when I got home.

I need to shoot my trapdoor more, chronograph the loads, and play with bullet diameter. As I shot and the barrel heated up, elevation went up.

45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel

405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F

Ave Vel = 1294
Std Dev = 14
ES = 40
Low = 1274
High = 1314
N = 15
Group Size Very . good

405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 1284
Std Dev = 23
ES = 80
Low = 1263
High = 1343
N = 12

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
15-Apr-05 T = 75 °F

Ave Vel = 1363
Std Dev = 25
ES = 97
Low = 1298
High = 1395
N = 20

Group Size good offhand at 100 yards



Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel
Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.
1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Veriner is 1 MOA

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"

29 May 2010 T = 89 °F

Ave Vel = 1324
Std Dev = 9
ES = 26
High = 1338
Low = 1312
N = 6