"Squaring" dies on the press

[cwsanfor]

I need to revisit my die setup, and I noticed some information about "squaring" dies in the press, that is, adjusting them, then applying pressure from the shellplate before locking them down:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/resize.cfm
www.sierrabullets.com/techservice/xring/pdfarchive/vol1no1.pdf
http://www.redding-reloading.com/co...a-custom-die-with-a-simple-shellholder-change

exteriorballistics says "This procedure applies to both sizing and seating dies, but should not be used with either carbide sizing dies or benchrest/competition seating dies."

So I wonder:
1) Do you pistol reloaders bother with this, and
2) Why not in carbide or competition dies?

Thanks in advance.

 

[cfullgraf]

The carbide ring in dies, while very resistant to scratching and wear, is very brittle. If too much force is applied to the ring it will shatter and break.

So, carbide dies should never be loaded up against the shell holder like steel dies.

 

[amlevin]

The carbide ring in dies, while very resistant to scratching and wear, is very brittle. If too much force is applied to the ring it will shatter and break.

So, carbide dies should never be loaded up against the shell holder like steel dies

I better hurry and readjust my carbide dies then. I've been using them snug against the shell holder since the early 70's and I sure wouldn't want the carbide to break. Especially since they're those cheap Lee dies.

 

[cfullgraf]

I better hurry and readjust my carbide dies then. I've been using them snug against the shell holder since the early 70's and I sure wouldn't want the carbide to break. Especially since they're those cheap Lee dies.

It depends on how you did the adjustment. If you turn the die down against the shell holder and locked the die down, when you resize a shell, there will probably be a sliver of daylight between the shell holder and the die and the carbide is not under excessive load.

If you turned the die to touch the shell holder then turn it a bit farther as recommended for steel dies...

Of course, I am recalling information included with my 1980s vintage carbide dies. Maybe the manufacturers have improved their product where the carbide can stand the load or don't use carbide anymore. Hornady's titanium nitride dies might fall into this category.

i have not broken a carbide in 30 years

 

[Uniquedot]

Do you pistol reloaders bother with this

I set them up and tighten the lock rings on all dies, but leave my turret loose (Lee loadmaster) then i put an fired case in station 1 and a loaded round in the bullet seating station and raise the ram and then i tighten the turret bolt. Of course i never have to readjust the dies, but i do the steps mentioned above every time i change turrets/calibers.

 

[fguffey]

I suggested a tool to be made that checks the alignment of the die to the shell holder, years ago, problem? Keeping up with more than two thoughts at one time, me? I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, I adjust the die to the shell holder with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage then increase the thickness of the feeler gage, after raising the ram I remove the slack between the threads of the die and press, then secure the lock nut, and if the die is square with the press I can measure the height of the die above the press, reloaders struggle with phantom indexes and make wild guesstimates of turns like 1/4, 1/2. After securing the die to the press I go back and measure the gap again.

As to the sliver of light, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, a cheap tool when measuring a gap a sliver of sight could pass through, I can not imagine the cost of a gage that measures light passing between between the shell holder and bottom of the die. I do know the feeler gage can measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, but as to being square, if the bottom of the die is not square and or the top of the shell holder is not square or if the press is tweaked or if the press changes configuration under a load etc., etc, then if I want to determine if the bottom of the die is square with the shell holder I use the sliver of light gage, the feeler gage, not complicated, use the guesstimate of a turn as in 0/0-zero degree, 1/4-90 degree, 1/2-180 degree, and 3/4-270 degree, if the gap is the same at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock, it can be said the die is aligned with the shell holder??? then there is the floating problem, I have presses that do not allow the case to float, but, I find advantages to that type press/shell, my favorite shell holders are the trashy ones, with a trashy ol shell holder I can form cases that are .012 thousands shorter than the minim,um length/full length sized case OR cases that are longer from the head of the case to it's shoulder by .016 thousands, or anything in between, with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.


Again, there are those that believe they have a cam-over press, most presses jam, cram, bind or lock up before they cam, my cam over presses bum twice as in bump/bump , my non-camming presses go jam, or cram, bind or jam or lock-up, I am not a fan of abusing my presses and that is the reason I got out of the bad habit of making wild guesstimates of a turn like 1/2 turn, but my cases do not whip my presses.

F. Guffey

 

[JimKirk]

This is an area that the Bonanza/Forster CoAx press shines in... it allows the die to align with the brass!

Jimmy K

 

[cwsanfor]

I am using Hornady Lock N Load Die Bushings, and I had never noticed there is a rubber O-ring under them, which provides some flex to the die position, like a Lee die clamp ring. I'm guessing that will obviate the usefulness of squaring the dies, and that with the Hornady bushings you rely on the sort of Lee/Arbor/Wilson approach of having some flex in the dies. I may try to sort of square them with a machined washer just in case.

 

[cfullgraf]

The o-ring is on top of the press body. There is some looseness in the bushing to press fit and the o-ring provides some resistance to keep the bushing from turning out. Much like the o-ring on the Lee lock rings do.

When the ram is raised and applies force to the die, the L-N-L bushing has metal to metal contact with the press. So, you could square the dies. Trouble is, once squared,you need to match mark the die and the press so that the die is re-installed the same way every time. Otherwise, the inherent machining tolerances in the L-N-L bushing will affect the squaring. This may not be noticeable, but if you went to all the trouble o squaring the dies, why knowingly install them out of square.

This does not happen with a conventional press with threaded die position since one the die ring is locked down, the die will always return the the same indexeed positon when re-installed.

Finally, there is enough flex in a progressive that squaring the dies may be an exercise in futility anyway.

Back to setting carbide dies. The following link also has a section on how to set up carbide dies per Sierra Bullets. They recommend the ram not touch the die.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/resize.cfm

 

[243winxb]

Do you pistol reloaders bother with this

No, only rifle. Tungsten carbide dies from RCBS can crack if contacting the shell holder/plate or if droped.

 

[JimKirk]

Back when I had my RCBS press ... I used a machined washer about .5" thick with around a .5" hole in it ...slide the washer over a (rifle) case and applied pressure to the bottom of the die... this was after I had the die in the position I wanted for that caliber. I pushed down ward on the press handle while tightening the lock ring on the die. I never did this with pistol/revolver ... mine were all carbide and I followed the instructions not to touch the shell holder.

Then I got the ForsterCoAx ...

Jimmy K

 

[EddieNFL]

No, only rifle.

How do you know what the shoulder setback is? I don't think any of my rifle dies have to touch the shellholder. Over the years I have had a couple of dies I had to trim to reach the proper setback.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't think any of my rifle dies have to touch the shellholder.

Me either.

 

[1911Tuner]

When carbide pistol dies first appeared, you had to be careful not to let the shell holder hit the bottom of the die more than a light kiss. And, of course...there was a little press flex that provided clearance when sizing. Also of course...the amount of flex depended on how heavy the press was. Caution was in order or the carbide ring could be ruined.

Modern carbide dies are made with the ring recessed about .008-.010 inch and it gives us a little more leeway in using the shell holder and ram to square up the die. Just don't adjust the die so far in that it causes a cam-over effect and you'll be okay.

My practice is to run the ram all the way up, and turn the die into barely snug contact...lock it down...and let the press flex provide a paper-thin clearance. Haven't had a problem.

 

[fguffey]

Even when it is believed to be necessary to adjust the die down to the shell holder to full length size a case, it may not be necessary, again I size/form cases with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, in small circles the feeler gage has become to be know as the sliver of light gage, but? that is another forum.

I form/size cases for short chambers, I form/size cases for long chambers, some as short as .017 thousands shorter than a go-gage length chamber and others .016 thousands longer than a minimum length size, over the counter, new, commercial case. I can also size cases for the Hatcher modified + .080 chamber, all I need to know or keep up with is the rifle design the cases will be fired in. and as Hatcher did not discover is not all rifles built by one manufacture share the same design.


Most forget, a few yeas ago the standard instructions for adjusting the die to the shell holder included a fractional/additional turn, went something like an additional 1/4 additional turn and if that does not allow the press, die and shell holder to whip the case into shape go 1/2 additional turn etc..

F. Guffey

 

[243winxb]

"squaring" dies in the press,

How do you know what the shoulder setback is?

Measure with a tool/ comparator , then put a shim between the die & shell holder to get the correct shoulder setback when setting up the die. Don't forget to put a hole in the shim for the decaping pin. This shim will square the rifle die with the shell holder.

 

[Walkalong]

Don't forget to put a hole in the shim for the decaping pin

Darn tootin'

 

[EddieNFL]

Measure with a tool/ comparator , then put a shim between the die & shell holder to get the correct shoulder setback when setting up the die. Don't forget to put a hole in the shim for the decaping pin. This shim will square the rifle die with the shell holder.

Point missed.

I free-float. No shims, no holes, no "extra 1/4 turn (or whatever the current die instructions say).

 

[fguffey]

EddieNFL, the feeler gage is a complete package, once mastered the user does not need a case comparator, head space gage, go, no or beyond. I have posted two responses to drafts. Both start with "AGAIN".

There is something I missed also, if the user of the feeler gage understands it's uses, why can't he determine the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder or why cant he determine the length of the chamber before firing, makes no sense and as I have been accused by a few I respect, "sounds like some risky stuff you are doing".

The chamber does not have to get dark when the bolt closes.

F. Guffey

 

[EddieNFL]

Yeah, I understand the feeler gauge package. I guess I'm just to subtle. FISHDO.

 

[gamestalker]

Lee doesn't mention this risk with their carbide dies, RCBS does.