Squibs & Rapid Fire

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otisrush

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I started a thread in a gun-specific forum (Walther PPQ) on the following topic and it generated some good discussion. I'd like to get opinions here as well.

The question/worry I have is what happens in a squib situation when doing rapid fire.

I've thought this through and investigated it in the AR world. From the YouTube videos I've watched the pattern seems pretty consistent: A squib does not (typically from what I understand) cycle an AR action. Therefore there is natural interruption in shooting since the hammer doesn't get cocked and pulling the trigger does nothing. This is where good behavior (check barrel for obstruction) needs to be chosen over bad behavior (rack the slide to get a round in the chamber). So a squib in an AR rapid fire doesn't concern me too much as I'm confident my attention will be immediately grabbed.

A semi-auto pistol, however, seems to be a different scenario. I've seen reports that for some guns a primer-only charge CAN cycle the action. In slow fire situations, again, I'm not worried: The alarm bells will go off and I won't blindly rack the slide. But what about high intensity, time-based scenarios like Steel Challenge. I can imagine it would be extremely difficult, when fighting the clock, to realize you had a light round and pull up in the middle of string because a shot felt funny.

For things like Steel Challenge do people just accept this as a risk? Certainly as reloaders we can take all sorts of precautions to prevent no-powder squibs. I do what most do such as looking at every case to confirm powder, etc. But at the end of the day mistakes (either yours or the primer manufacturers or whatever) can happen. And if a squib cycles your action and you're in rapid fire things could go south.

How do others look upon / deal with / think about this situation?

OR
 
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More a problem running a revolver double action, fast. If it happens, deal with it after. Sort of like a heart attack.
 
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A DA revolver can get you in trouble with a squib if you are firing fast. An auto can cycle from a squib, but everything has to be just about perfect, and it is rare. I didn't think it could, but 1911Tuner explained it to me in a thread here somewhere.
 
I do not worry about it in a semi auto. It will either not cycle or have a failure to eject stove pipe or something. I suppose real hot max loads may cycle a gun but I do not load any of those,

As mentioned revolvers are a different ball game.
 
Many years ago and far, far away

I bought my first Mauser 98, an old WWII FN short rifle which was in decent shape. At the time 8mm was a hard cartridge to find. So I scrounged some brass and bullets at a gun show, loaded them up with light loads of 4831 and 125 grain bullets and was shooting them when, after pulling the trigger on one of them, I heard nothing and no recoil. When I pulled the bolt back a bunch of un-burned powder came spilling out with the cartridge case, all dirty. I was easily confuse in those days and considered chambering another round but got to thinking that just maybe the bullet was still in the barrel. It was. Luckily I didn't shoot it till I took it to the house and rammed a cleaning rod through it. Later I learned that using a slow powder and light bullet could wreck a gun and the shooter. Didn't do that again.
 
When I first started reloading I had a few squibs during USPSA and IDPA indoor matches. Only once did the RO stop me. In every case the bullet travel was short enough that the next round would not chamber. Lucky me. When asked, the RO said he didn't here the squib.

As anyone competing knows, the first thing you'll do when pulling the trigger doesn't fire is to rack the slide; it's just automatic.

Under these conditions you cannot count on anyone noticing the squib. So yes, I'd say that you accept the risk and therefore check every round before bullet seating. If you do have a squib you better hope it's one with no powder.
 
A semi-auto pistol, however, seems to be a different scenario. I've seen reports that for some guns a primer-only charge CAN cycle the action. In slow fire situations, again, I'm not worried: The alarm bells will go off and I won't blindly rack the slide. But what about high intensity, time-based scenarios like Steel Challenge.
Click to expand...

I had a squib that travelled 3+" down a tuned CZ 4.62" bbl. AND it was on the second shot of a short range USPSA double tap target. I fired the first shot and normally ride the reset for a fairly fast second shot on a target like this; but something did register, and I froze after the squib. "After" I froze the RO yelled stop.

Every time I'm shooting a 4-shot (or more) gong, I remember that squib.:uhoh:


When I started reloading I had a squib that I believe was 'primer only'.
The second bullet tried to feed but couldn't because the squib bullet's base was still in the cone. This was also on a tuned pistol that had very light hammer and recoil springs.
 
Squibs are also possible (but rare) with powder in the case. Not a full charge of course. For the past several years I've been deliberately playing around with squibs (the horror!) and I haven't had one of my semi-autos cycle yet. That's not to say it's impossible.

Revolvers, as mentioned, are a different story. I've had a few squibs that locked up the cylinder, but I certainly wouldn't depend on that every time.
 
Always worried about squibs loading ammunition, has worked to eliminate my worries about them when firing the ammo.

I have seen many over the years from other shooters (all too common playing gun games) have had to yell "stop" as an RO/SO more than a few times.

I have personally never seen one cycle the action and sometimes does not move the bullet far enough to chamber another round.

If any one has had a squib because of something they missed or just want to sleep better at night, I would suggest a powder check/lock out die.
 
"...what happens in a squib situation when doing rapid fire..." Your barrel gets bulged and you have to buy and have a new one fitted. The pistol just stops working when the slide doesn't function from the bulge.
The primer absolutely will cycle a .45. Not enough powder will too. Don't think it was not enough powder though. Suspect operator failure when loading.
 
I hate to say "never" because I kind of enjoy proving folks wrong but it would be quite rare for a primer alone to cycle a 45 acp. There are a lot that will get FTF even with reduced loads say to "minor" power factor, without a spring change. To get them to cycle with just a primer leaving the bullet stuck in the barrel would be something I have never seen in 30 years of reloading.

I would be more willing to buy someone "thought" a squib cycled the action then the next loaded round caused a "kaboom", when in fact it was a double.

Really a pointless argument when both can be avoided.
 
A friend had a bullet stick when shooting drills when he was on the SO. I think he tap-rack-banged when it didnt make the correct bang sound, and it locked up his gun. The barrel was bulged in his 1911 type gun. They managed to get it apart, nothing seemed to be damaged besides the barrel. He bought a new barrel and its been fine.
 
Speaking semi-autos here, I've loaded powder charges low enough that the brass stays in the chamber in both 9mm and 45ACP (intentionally - searching for the lightest load that will lock the slide back). The bullet definitely went downrange. Some cycled far enough to reset the hammer on the 1911, but others would leave the hammer down. I've also had a near-squib on a 22LR pistol. I could actually see the bullet arc downrange and it bounced off the target :scrutiny: the brass was still in the chamber and the hammer was down but no squib.

Physics is physics - a semi auto is designed to operate with a given amount of push and there are plenty of loads that clear the barrel that won't give enough push. Since a squib by definition has even less push than that, my conclusion is that a squib shoud not cycle the action unless you've lightened the recoil spring well below factory.
 
I probably should have done this from the outset - but I just finished looking at some squib load videos on YouTube. Of the 5 or so I watched none of them cycled the action. I saw what I presumed to be Glocks in there, as well as a S&W - I presume an M&P.

Unfortunately, in a few of them, the shooter was just going to rack. These were competition scenarios where my sense (I acknowledge I may be reaching) was that the frustration expressed by the shooter was NOT that they got a squib - it was that their string got messed up. It took the timer (are they called an SO?) to tell the shooter to stop.

OR
 
I've seen plenty of squibs in competition... anyone who shoots a lot of pistol competition has seen many.

They will not even move the slide at all, much less cycle it. In all the cases I've seen where someone tried to chamber a new round immediately, the bullet was not even moved far enough down the barrel to allow the next round to chamber. Same story in 9mm, .40, .45, 38 supercomp, just from what I can remember right off hand. I wouldn't assume THAT is always the case, but you can bank on the fact that a true squib will not even begin to move the slide. You will either hear the little faint "pop", or you won't. If you aren't right on top of it (either the shooter or the RO) you probably won't. If you don't hear it, you are just going to assume it was a dud primer or something, and the clock is running.

In competition, if the official suspects a squib (potential safety problem obviously if the shooter is able to chamber another round) HE can stop the shooter. If there is no squib, the shooter gets a re-shoot. If there is a squib, the stage is scored as it stands. If the shooter stops himself, he gets the score as it stands regardless. Therefore the shooter is motivated to keep rolling.
 
Walkalong said:
A DA revolver can get you in trouble with a squib if you are firing fast. An auto can cycle from a squib, but everything has to be just about perfect, and it is rare. I didn't think it could, but 1911Tuner explained it to me in a thread here somewhere.
Click to expand...
May have been in this thread where I was taking some heat after describing an apparent squib cycle experience I had.
 
Walkalong said:
A DA revolver can get you in trouble with a squib if you are firing fast.
Click to expand...

It can, but, IME, if the case is completely devoid of powder (i.e. primer-only), the bullet spans the cylinder gap and ties up the gun, so a 2nd round is impossible.

A squib that results from a low powder charge would be a problem in a revolver, but I've not had any of those. Though I've seen examples of revolver bullets stacking up in the barrel on the internet, any squibs I've had (a fortunate few) or saw first-hand have resulted from a powder "bridge" forming in the dispenser, so the charge has been "all or none".
 
May have been in this thread
Click to expand...
I don't believe that was the one I was thinking of, as I feel like I was involved in it, but he explains it there just the same.

Some people get squibs starting too low, or starting at minimum and having the powder away from the primer etc etc. These can stick a bullet in the barrel where a revolver will still operate.

I have no doubt there are many primer only squibs that lock the gun up, even though I haven't seen it. That would be much better.
 
Walkalong said:
I don't believe that was the one I was thinking of, as I feel like I was involved in it, but he explains it there just the same.



Some people get squibs starting too low, or starting at minimum and having the powder away from the primer etc etc. These can stick a bullet in the barrel where a revolver will still operate.



I have no doubt there are many primer only squibs that lock the gun up, even though I haven't seen it. That would be much better.
Click to expand...


I've seen a primer only squib lock a 686 up in it's tracks. My uncle loaded it on his 550. He was using a DEWC and it made it halfway into the barrel.
 
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