Stabbing attack at TX college at same time Congress is pushing Gun Control

[HorseSoldier]

ABSOLUTELY NOT. THE PUBLIC DOES NOT NEED PROTECTION FROM THE MENTALLY ILL ANY MORE THAN IT NEEDS PROTECTION FROM ALIENS.

So this argument isn't really going to be a ground gainer for the 2nd Amendment so long as people can point to incidents where people who were clearly 'round the bend mentally did go on killing sprees whereas so far as I know we've yet to indict a single extra terrestrial for any crime whatsoever.

We get into that same problem of the GWOT -- "Not all Muslims are our enemies, but all our enemies happen to be Muslims." There are people out there with mental illness that absolutely, zero room for debate, pose threats to others because of their behavioral health problems. The system is incredibly dysfunctional and broken when it comes to dealing with them. Once upon a time various recent spree killers would have been locked up in an asylum, possibly in perpetuity -- the problem was so were a lot of people who were completely harmless and had no business being restrained and incarcerated against their will. We've swung that incarceration pendulum way, way in the other direction to where even in cases where the courts adjudicated someone to be a danger to themselves/others it's deemed better to put them back out on the street (i.e. Seung-Hui Cho) and we can point to assorted other recent high profile cases where people saw red flags and nobody took ownership of the situation and did anything meaningful.

Is there a slippery slope which could end in everyone who hit a rough patch in life and talked to a counselor, therapist, psychiatrist or even regular medical doctor about or got prescribed psych-related pharmaceuticals as a kid getting unfairly and unreasonably effected by some sweeping crazy legislation? Yeah, there is. But to insist there is no problem will come across to the folks in the middle as gun-rights advocates being lunatics themselves.

 

[MachIVshooter]

To put it in perspective, I read that the attacker used an X-Acto knife.

This does make me wonder though, if knife wounds are as serious as gun wounds, then why does it seem like there are far fewer deaths in stabbing sprees? Though granted, this incident involved a very small knife.

Pretty difficult to inflict mortal wounds with a 1" long blade. Serious injuries, yes, but most likely not immediately life threatening.

As for deaths, there are very few "stabbing sprees" in this country, or really any other, from which to judge (in point of fact, there are relatively few shooting sprees). There are, however, a lot of knife assaults and murders here and abroad. While somewhat difficult to employ a knife in killing larger numbers of people because knives are not ranged weapons, they are highly effective on one or two victims.

I don't know the stats for survivability of knife attacks, but over 80% of people shot with handguns survive. An 8" butcher knife stabbed into your body can do every bit as much damage as a .45 hollowpoint, and someone who knows how to handle a knife can make you dead very quickly.

So yes, at contact distance, knives are just as deadly and every bit as much a threat as firearms.

 

[allaroundhunter]

A 1" long blade can pierce further than 1" into a body. And even then, many vital arteries and veins are accessible to a 1" blade...

If it is what I had to use then I would adjust some tactics to focus on areas that are more susceptible to a shorter blade length, but I could still land a fight stopping hit. Just like when using a longer blade, it takes an understanding of human anatomy to know what areas to target.

As far as immediately incapacitating, the main one is severing the CNS. Yes, having a 1" blade would make that a more difficult target, but it is still possible to reach it.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Proof that gun free zones are open invites to commit violence.

 

[TennJed]

I saw a thread about this on another, non firearm message board I frequent. The prevailing thought was this is a reason to ban guns. 14 injured, not dead. While I don't agree with it I mentioned this is what the antis are thinking. There are better arguments to make against gun control than using this example.

 

[MachIVshooter]

A 1" long blade can pierce further than 1" into a body. And even then, many vital arteries and veins are accessible to a 1" blade...

X-acto knives don't have much of a handle with which to thrust them in further, and even if you do, there's < 1" of cutting edge on the very end of a 5/16" diameter shaft.

The only places you have major vessels close to the surface are sides of neck (carotid/Jugular) and upper arms (Brachial/Basilic/Cephalic), with two of the three arm vessels being on the inside. You're not going to get the femoral by slashing with a hobby knife.

Can a short blade be deadly? Sure. But it's going to take a lucky cut by the attacker (or a whole lot of them) to be fatal. I would consider someone attacking with a hobby knife or box cutter a very serious threat, but not an immediately lethal one as they would be with a large knife or a gun.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Are the knife attacks stabbings or slashings? There is a serious difference in death rate between stabbing wounds and typical slashing wounds. One reason why under a lot of knife laws a pocket knife with a blade under 3" is OK, but a pocket knife with a blade over 3" is treated as a deadly weapon.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

This has me thinking about the U.K. It seems that once they ban guns to their liking, they move on to other things, like knives.

I mean, Britain has no handguns or center-fire semi-autos, and what you are allowed to have is tightly controlled and requires being a member of an approved club. So unless you know someone who's into shooting, it would be impossible for you to get into it as well.

Now that they have gun owners essentially locked into attrition, having made it difficult for new people to be introduced to guns, they've moved onto knives.

What are the knife laws there?

 

[MachIVshooter]

What are the knife laws there?

I don't know exactly, but I do know they've been trying to regulate/confiscate blades and other potential weapons for some time now.

Next it'll be glass bottles and fluorescent light bulbs. I'm sure they'll outlaw sharp corners and stairs, too, once thugs start pushing people to their deaths......

 

[ball3006]

You never need a gun until you need one badly...............chris3

 

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know all the ins and outs on UK knife laws, but I know you're not allowed to have a pocket knife where the blade locks in place, as this makes it too much of a deadly weapon.

Every time I flew through Kandahar Air Field in Afghanistan I always found it funny/depressing to look at the display case they had of stuff the RAF military police confiscated from British service members outbound back to the UK -- lots of Kabars and other pretty mundane knives. I always wondered about the Gurkha kukri they had in the contraband case -- I guess it's okay to have a kukri if it is issued to you by the UK military, but not to own your own? Makes our DOD's pretty stupid rules on taking stuff into and out of warzones look positively laxadaisical.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I wonder if multi bladed assault knives will be next on Feinstein's agenda?

 

[Onward Allusion]

TennJed
I saw a thread about this on another, non firearm message board I frequent. The prevailing thought was this is a reason to ban guns. 14 injured, not dead. While I don't agree with it I mentioned this is what the antis are thinking. There are better arguments to make against gun control than using this example.

The perp used the wrong tool. An X-acto knife isn't exactly a "real" weapon. If he had used a short sword, a large Bowie, or even some type of kitchen knife I guarantee you that there would have been fatalities. The problem is that there is way too much focus on the tool and not the root-cause. Even here among 2nd Amendment folks.

Something needs to be done about mental illness in this country. If it means doling out public monies to fund mental health assistance programs, so be it. It ain't the violent video games, movies, or rap music. It's the lack of a support structure for people. Once upon a time, the family provided the backbone to our society. Not any more... Damn, I sound like an old crusty curmudgeon.

Second, we need to get back to the fundamentals with regard to crime and punishment. Get caught for a violent rape, get castrated. Get caught for murder, die. No, 25 to life. No life w/o parole. Get caught for something violent to another human being, lose a hand.

Extreme? Maybe. But I guarantee crime will go way way way down. There is something to be said about some of the laws in Singapore and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I cannot think of a recent "spree shooting" that did not occur in a gun-free zone. The vast majority of them have been at schools to my knowledge.

Well Leon, I see that you have now stipulated a specific category of mass shooting called a shooting spree. By definition, shooting sprees occur at multiple locations without a cooling off period. Your stipulation changes your original comment that criminals pick gun-free zones. I specifically addressed mass shooters which can be inclusive of spree shooters.

Spree events are often comparable with rampage events (not so formally defined), but are definitional ambiguities with notions of what consitutes a "cooling off period" (minutes, hours, days) and what is a location (room, floor, structure, campus, address, etc.).

Mass shootings involve 4 or more victims (not including the shooter) in a short period of time. Most such shootings are domestic events that fail to make national news or if they do, fail to capture the new media's attention. "Mass shootings" make no distinction between domestic and non-domestic events, but generally speaking, most such shootings do involve people that are somehow related to one another either through family relationships, living arrangements, work situations, friendships, etc. They are not random. A decent discussion is provided here...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=674889

However, if you want actual "spree" shootings that did not occur in gun-free zones, here are but a few examples.
Tyler Courthouse
Franklin Township
Roger Dale Stafford
Geneva County Massacre - this is classic, involving multiple locations spanning multiple counties.
2011 - Copley Community, Ohio, Michael E. Hance, killed 7 in two houses. All were shot in the head, then tried shooting it out with the cops.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Second, we need to get back to the fundamentals with regard to crime and punishment. Get caught for a violent rape, get castrated. Get caught for murder, die. No, 25 to life. No life w/o parole. Get caught for something violent to another human being, lose a hand.

Not to get off topic, but I like the 8th amendment.

 

[TCB in TN]

I feel for the victims of this attack, and agree that it would be wise to attempt to identify really dangerous individuals.

But as wise as identifying dangerous individuals is, honestly what are you going to do with them?

Unless you incarcerate those who are actually dangerous (whatever that means) what steps are you going to be able to take that will actually protect society from them?

 

[Bill_Shelton]

I feel for the victims of this attack, and agree that it would be wise to attempt to identify really dangerous individuals.

But as wise as identifying dangerous individuals is, honestly what are you going to do with them?

Unless you incarcerate those who are actually dangerous (whatever that means) what steps are you going to be able to take that will actually protect society from them?

I think we could all start by trying to help create a society that doesn't alienate people.

 

[Texan Scott]

Not going to join this debate right now. Just saying that 14 people were hurt today, 12 of them badly, and that should NOT have happened. Still, while they need medical care, while their families worry over them, is NOT repeat NOT the time to exploit this for political points. That's exactly the crap the antis did so disrespectfully and distastefully after Sandy Hook.

I choose to take the high road and wish the victims a full and speedy recovery, hoping that THEY will make the needed arguments more effectively themselves.

 

[gc70]

Instead of focusing on armed vs. armed we should draw attention to identifying dangerously unstable people who need help and who the public needs protection from.

Even very early reports in this case suggest the attacker might have exhibited questionable signs.

The student has been described by other students as an “eccentric” person who often wore gloves and would carry stuffed animals around campus.

 

[Kiln]

The problem with banning something like a knife is that it is a solid piece that can easily be fabricated by somebody that wants to make a weapon. You can literally create a knife in 20 minutes with a piece of metal and some sharpening materials.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Not going to join this debate right now. Just saying that 14 people were hurt today, 12 of them badly, and that should NOT have happened. Still, while they need medical care, while their families worry over them, is NOT repeat NOT the time to exploit this for political points. That's exactly the crap the antis did so disrespectfully and distastefully after Sandy Hook.

LOL, I don't think any of us are involved in the medical industry in Houston in direct patient care, so the victims are likely getting the care they need. Do not fool yourself into thinking discussing political aspects is only something done by the antis. You would not be trying to admonish people if it was something only done by the antis, would you?

Instead of focusing on armed vs. armed we should draw attention to identifying dangerously unstable people who need help and who the public needs protection from.

How do you protect yourself from people who are described as...

Michael Lincoln, who lives next door to the Quick family, described the suspect as friendly.

"If he's outside, he speaks to me, `Hey neighbor, how you doing?"' Lincoln said.

He added that Quick had never been aggressive, which makes the accusations against him shocking.

"He stayed inside most of the time unless they were doing yard work," he said.

Elva Garcia, 46, who lives two houses down from the Quicks, described him as a nice young man who stayed out of trouble and only came outside with his parents. She saw him, she said, just this past weekend, working with his parents in the front yard.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/0...ed-on-lone-star-college-campus/#ixzz2Q3VK3p2w

Even very early reports in this case suggest the attacker might have exhibited questionable signs.

Wait, there is a weird kid on a college campus doing strange things, like maybe carrying a stuffed animal?
http://www.examiner.com/article/tex...s-14-knife-attack-victims-4-seriously-injured
http://www.gadailynews.com/news/cri...as-eccentric-who-carried-stuffed-animals.html

I can't think of a time when I was involved with college campuses that there weren't weird/eccentric kids (students of traditional age) that did weird things. Often kids work to project that sort of image, to not be normal. Some were very disassociative, quiet types who stuck to themselves, like Dylan Quick apparently was. He was deaf (hearing aids, born deaf, learned to speak at age 7 after implants), often wore gloves and carried a stuffed animal sometimes as well. He was apparently sent to college to help him to socialize more (in library science of all things). He was home schooled, liked books, liked Phantom of the Opera, and wanted to go into accounting. Do these signs sound dangerous?
http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/04/dylan-quick-lone-star-stabber/
http://www.click2houston.com/news/S...uick/-/1735978/19685226/-/46qrkd/-/index.html

How would you know that any given eccentric college student might suddenly (unbeknownst to those around him/her) turn exceptionally violent? While maybe not involved in such big events, plenty of "normal" people commit all sorts of acts of violence that occur much more often on a much wider scale. So either way, how do you know how to pick out the ones who will some day turn violent that currently have no known or recognized history from those that won't? If not expressed, how do you know when a person has long standing fantasies of violence?

Interesting, Quick was featured in the student spotlight just a couple of weeks ago...
http://www.click2houston.com/news/S...uick/-/1735978/19685226/-/46qrkd/-/index.html

 

[HoosierQ]

Knife wounds are every bit as serious, many times more-so, than GSW.

Really?

 

[foghornl]

Hmmmmm

Just a wild thought here, but for this discussion, let's say the first person injured had Hepatitis A/B/C or HIV, etc. Could the blood still on the blade from first injured infect the second and subsequent persons?

 

[JRH6856]

^^^ Theoretically, yes.

 

[Tomcat47]

As stated above about Thinking about the injured in this attack, yesterday I skipped over this thread.....

So Fast Forward to today....

This thread was not on my mind until the news this morning when they again covered the story..gave details...few facts about the attacker...

Then in closing she (tv anchor) picks up a fact sheet on mass stabbings and poo poos this stabbing off and looks at camera and says keep in mind that their were no deaths like happen in mass attacks where firearms were used.

Again! They do not discuss the problem! They discuss and create an Agenda! I assure anyone that their has been more compassionate thoughts to those families from members of this forum than has been truly heart felt from any media source on air.

And my reply to the post regarding not discussing the politics of this during this time I can agree.... Because this is a much more serious problem than politics! we missed the boat on that discussion 20 years ago before it got to the point of dismantling the very documents that established our freedoms to begin with.