ClemsonAl
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Saw on the news that STAG Arms is moving out of Connecticut to South Carolina.
STAG Arms moving
- Thread starter ClemsonAl
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The only thing I saw was that PTR Industries is definitely moving from CT to SC.
http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2013/06/20/gun-manufacturer-moving-to-sc-due-to-conn-gun-control-laws/
"On Wednesday, the rifle manufacturer kept its promise, announcing it will move to Aynor, S.C."
Here it mentions Stag, but the article says that it would be difficult for them to move.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...-connecticut-south-carolina-charles-c-w-cooke
"I spoke to Stag Arms’s CEO, Mark Malkowski, .....he’d received “about one hundred” offers to move the facility out of state, but that “although tempting,” it was “difficult” to flee a “high-tax, high-regulation” state like Connecticut when you make such a specialized product. “We lose three days if we move a single machine three feet to the left,” he said. Still, now that PTR has taken the lead, one wonders who will follow."
A little bit off topic, but why did some of the newer gun manufacturers locate themselves in CT if it is a high-tax, high-regulation state? Is it because of the skilled labor and proximity to suppliers that are there with the long-time manufacturers?
rromeo
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http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130620/NEWS/306200325
It doesn't say it's a done deal, but it looks like they're investing time and money in looking at it.
It doesn't say it's a done deal, but it looks like they're investing time and money in looking at it.
I feel sorry for the workers at these companies. With the company moving they have the hard choice to either uproot their families and move to keep their job or start looking for a new job. All because their boss wants to make a political point.
ugaarguy
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That's absurd. The owners aren't trying to make political points. The owners are moving their businesses out of ever more hostile environments. The blame rests with the politicians in those states who are driving businesses away because they wanted to make political points by passing anti-gun laws that do nothing for public safety, but further infringe upon the rights of law abiding citizens.
Torian
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It's not about politics, it's about good business. These companies have a responsibility to stay in business and stay solvent. If they are in a hostile business climate (high tax, anti gun), moving makes sense.
I feel for the workers, but this isn't a charity organization. I'm sure the company would prefer to hold onto its talent, and will offer the workers some type of option to move with the company.
The bottom line is Connecticut will see there are consequences for its actions. Why should an industry that is being directly targeted by the state of Connecticut continue to give the state its business?
TCB in TN
Member
Whats wrong with making a political point? Our government is supposed to serve the people and when it doesn't then we actually have a responsibility as citizens to move it back in line. One of the major problems today is that our government isn't behaving as it should and far to few citizens know or care. We need more citizens making politic points not fewer.
Most business are in business to make money, states that make it more difficult to make money are not business friendly and as such actively push those businesses out of the state (see the Cali business exodus fore example).
Further more most business want to stay in business, meaning states that are literally trying to close businesses down don't normally keep them. (CT and other anti gun states are limiting or banning the products many gun makers make, effectively trying to shut them done) So really its not as much politics as just good business to move.
A company moving from Connecticut to North Carolina does not change who they can sell their product to. Newly prohibited items will still be prohibited in Connecticut. Moving is a political statement, nothing more.
Edit: "What is wrong with making a political point?" This particular political point will disrupt the lives of every one of their employees and their families. Even if an employee decides to follow the company to keep his or her job it won't be easy. Most families have two working spouses so the spouse will need to find a job in NC equivalent to their current job. Kids will change school and lose friends. Houses need to be bought and sold complete with all hassle and fees involved. The owner of the company is throwing all of his employees life into turmoil simply because he didn't get his way. It is political, it is petty, and it shows a lack of respect for one's employees.
Edit: "What is wrong with making a political point?" This particular political point will disrupt the lives of every one of their employees and their families. Even if an employee decides to follow the company to keep his or her job it won't be easy. Most families have two working spouses so the spouse will need to find a job in NC equivalent to their current job. Kids will change school and lose friends. Houses need to be bought and sold complete with all hassle and fees involved. The owner of the company is throwing all of his employees life into turmoil simply because he didn't get his way. It is political, it is petty, and it shows a lack of respect for one's employees.
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another pake
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Quote:
All because their boss wants to make a political point.
Business owners and "bosses" don't move production facilities to make points. The CEO of Stag Arms said clearly that moving a single machine even a few feet causes a production delay of three days. That delay means no production and no profit. Owners and Boards understand that employee staffing and training is a very costly proposition. Nobody makes these kinds of decisions to make a point. They may make them reluctantly when another city, state or even another country offers concessions or incentives which would help reduce the cost of producing their widgets. Incentives may include things like property acquisition, property tax forgiveness for a period of time, production facility construction, reduced utility expenses and the like. States and or countries may offer reduced tax burdens on production.
Nobody that I know of moves to make a point.
But their moving may hopefully make a point.
All because their boss wants to make a political point.
Business owners and "bosses" don't move production facilities to make points. The CEO of Stag Arms said clearly that moving a single machine even a few feet causes a production delay of three days. That delay means no production and no profit. Owners and Boards understand that employee staffing and training is a very costly proposition. Nobody makes these kinds of decisions to make a point. They may make them reluctantly when another city, state or even another country offers concessions or incentives which would help reduce the cost of producing their widgets. Incentives may include things like property acquisition, property tax forgiveness for a period of time, production facility construction, reduced utility expenses and the like. States and or countries may offer reduced tax burdens on production.
Nobody that I know of moves to make a point.
But their moving may hopefully make a point.
150 years ago Connecticut was the manufacturing heart of the country. That's why Colt, Winchester, Marlin, and Mossberg are located there. All the newer companies located there because they wanted to do business with the bigger companies or hire the skilled machinists who were employed by the bigger companies. The same reason why Walmart vendors set up offices in Arkansas and all the DOD/CIA contractors have offices in Northern Virginia.
The key word there is 'owner' of the company. The owner can do what they want with their company. Not to sound too cold about it, but even if it was solely to make a political point, that is totally their right.
As far as the firearms production is concerned, why would you stay in a state that oppresses the very reason for the existence of your company. That's just silly. Making a smart business decision, in addition to a political statement, is just a 'win win' in my book.
TCB in TN
Member
And why exactly should a business supply jobs for a state trying to outlaw their products? You seem to have a very skewed idea about what businesses are for.
As for a lack of respect. The state of CT has shown a complete lack of respect for the rights stated in our BoRs, not to mention the fact that the state of CT is showing a complete lack of concern for those employees that you profess to care so much for. Did you miss the concept that they are banning the same products that those employees are being paid to make? What exactly do you think will happen to those jobs and those employees if the "CT Model" is followed nationally? If the state of CT was concerned with those jobs, and by extension those employees, then they wouldn't be trying to eliminate them to start with.
ugaarguy
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Do you live under a rock? Seriously. MagPul is having to move from Colorado because CO's mag capacity limitations also made it illegal to manufacture those mags in CO for civilian sales outside of CO where the mags are still legal. That law was pushed through with heavy funding by Bloomberg and his ilk. They've made their model clear. CT is much more anti gun than CO. Do you think these companies should just sit and wait for CT to pass a similar and force them to move? Isn't it more prudent to either move to a more friendly state, or start making plans to move before being forced to?
How about the recently published article regarding Beretta USA considering moving their Mfg. facilities out of MD? One of their execs who was interviewed brought up the point that it's almost hypocritical to ask employees to make something they can't own themselves in MD, but can be purchased by residents right down the road in VA.
The only way to get these state governments in line is to hit them in their pocket book, and take your tax dollars to a more supportive state. Why should they continue to fund, through their taxes, state governments that openly hate the products they make, and the lifestyle they stand for?
I understand the companies move to other cities and states to take advantage of special incentives and tax structures. That isn't what we are talking about. You have a group of companies that told the State Legislature that if they passed the gun bill they would move out of state and then followed through. When they made their threats they didn't talk about tax policy. That is politics not economics.
I also understand the cost of relocating. I have worked in manufacturing plants for 13 years, and have overseen relocation of departments. That is why you won't see the large companies throwing a tantrum and leaving the state, it will be the small companies.
I also understand how business works. I have owned a business, though not one large enough to employ anyone besides myself. However, I am well versed in the regulation, licenses, paperwork, and tax remittance required to own a business. I have the old school mindset that says both labor and capital are required for a successful business and both have value. That employees are not cogs in the machinery that can be replaced on a whim. That employees will be loyal to a company if the company is loyal to the employees.
I also have close friends that own businesses that treat their employees well. One is a small fabrication shop with 3 employees, the other is a machine shop with 25 employees. Both reduced their personal income and even dipped into savings to keep their staff employed during the recent recession. They could have fired people and "right sized" their staff to meet demand like a large corporation would do but instead they did the right thing. In return their employees are loyal. They don't have to worry about an employee leaving for a job that pays $0.10 / hour more. Their employees take pride in their work and want to do a good job because it helps the business. Taking care one's employees isn't just the right thing to do, it is also good for business.
I also understand the cost of relocating. I have worked in manufacturing plants for 13 years, and have overseen relocation of departments. That is why you won't see the large companies throwing a tantrum and leaving the state, it will be the small companies.
I also understand how business works. I have owned a business, though not one large enough to employ anyone besides myself. However, I am well versed in the regulation, licenses, paperwork, and tax remittance required to own a business. I have the old school mindset that says both labor and capital are required for a successful business and both have value. That employees are not cogs in the machinery that can be replaced on a whim. That employees will be loyal to a company if the company is loyal to the employees.
I also have close friends that own businesses that treat their employees well. One is a small fabrication shop with 3 employees, the other is a machine shop with 25 employees. Both reduced their personal income and even dipped into savings to keep their staff employed during the recent recession. They could have fired people and "right sized" their staff to meet demand like a large corporation would do but instead they did the right thing. In return their employees are loyal. They don't have to worry about an employee leaving for a job that pays $0.10 / hour more. Their employees take pride in their work and want to do a good job because it helps the business. Taking care one's employees isn't just the right thing to do, it is also good for business.
Complete BS. Nothing in Colorado House Bill 13-1224 bans the manufacture of magazines for sale outside of Colorado. See section 3:
(3) THE OFFENSE DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1) OF THIS SECTION
SHALL NOT APPLY TO:
(a) AN ENTITY, OR ANY EMPLOYEE THEREOF ENGAGED IN HIS OR HER
EMPLOYMENT DUTIES, THAT MANUFACTURES LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINES
WITHIN COLORADO EXCLUSIVELY FOR TRANSFER TO, OR ANY LICENSED GUN
DEALER, AS DEFINED IN SECTION 12-26.1-106 (6), C.R.S., OR ANY EMPLOYEE
THEREOF ENGAGED IN HIS OR HER OFFICIAL EMPLOYMENT DUTIES, THAT
SELLS LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINES EXCLUSIVELY TO:
(I) A BRANCH OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES;
(II) A DEPARTMENT, AGENCY, OR POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THE
STATE OF COLORADO, OR OF ANY OTHER STATE, OR OF THE UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT;
(III) A FIREARMS RETAILER FOR THE PURPOSE OF FIREARMS SALES
CONDUCTED OUTSIDE THE STATE;
(IV) A FOREIGN NATIONAL GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED
FOR SUCH TRANSFERS BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT; OR
(V) AN OUT-OF-STATE TRANSFEREE WHO MAY LEGALLY POSSESS A
LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...E62E6F87257B0100813CB5?Open&file=1224_enr.pdf
ugaarguy
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That must have been a list minute revision to try to keep MagPul in CO. Original versions of the bill did not have such exemptions. Regardless, how long do you stay in a state that's already openly threatening your business? How can you not see that politics and economics are so closely intertwined?
Further, moving to make a political statement for the cause of fighting for our constitutional rights is far more noble than moving for purely economic reasons.
Magpul, STAG and PTR are all doing "the right thing"
mljdeckard
Member
Is there no understanding for the fact that it is patently absurd for a gun company to continue doing business in a place where the government is hostile towards them? We have been asking in here for years why there are so many gun companies headquartered in states that are hostile to guns. Sooner or later, the company must evaluate whether or not the principle outweighs the benefits, and also look ahead to how long it will be before the hostile government DOES make moves that will be detrimental to the business.
I find myself wondering if Kimber will hold out in Yonkers, or whether their facilities are too large to move.
I find myself wondering if Kimber will hold out in Yonkers, or whether their facilities are too large to move.
I think it is a fine idea that freedom loving states acquire companies with the expertise to manufacture firearms. And states that do not love freedom lose that expertise from their geographic area.
I seem to remember a previous episode in our nation's history where this proved an important point.
I seem to remember a previous episode in our nation's history where this proved an important point.
If i were an employee of a ct. Firearms company and they gave me the oppurtunity to "uproot" myself from a high tax, oppressive and overly restricitve state govt. I would be estatic. I agree with others. You are blaming the wrong people JHS1. The political statements being made which are hurting people are coming state governments like CT. and not the manufacturing companies. If they stay silent and roll over it just allows these draconian states to get their way and still get tax dollars from the gun industry. Furthermore it sets a precedent for other states by showing they can pass ridiculous laws with no ill effect. So what if part of magpul or stag arms decision to move is a political statement? That is what is needed to preserve our way of life. More power to them. As far as feeling sorry for workers who have to relocate? Yeah it might be an inconvenience but just ask anybody is done time in the military. Suck it up and you deal with it and look at the positives. (You have a good job making products for which there is a great demand). Ive relocated for work my entire life. It's part of living in America. You go where the opportunities and the work is.
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TCB in TN
Member
OK then JHS1, if you are knowledgeable about business then it should be pretty simple to understand. There comes a point in which it makes more sense to move than to stay. In this case you have a state in which there is high tax, high regulation, and is basically banning the products which you produce. It doesn't make good business sense to stay.
If I were in their position I would do the same. I would suggest most successful businesses would do the same.
If I were in their position I would do the same. I would suggest most successful businesses would do the same.
Tim the student
Member
Good for them.
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