starting to load .380 auto?

[lckdnldd]

I am beginning to load .380 auto for my recently purchased LCP and I am looking for info on a good OAL for a particular bullet. SAMMI says for this caliber the maximum OAL is .984 and the minimum is .910. I am using Xtreme Bullets .355, 100gr copper plated flat nose over 2.9gr, of HP-38 in once fired PMC brass. I started at the max of .984 and it would not fit through the ejection port. Dropped down to .975 and it cycles and functions fine. What I do not like at that OAL is the seating depth. It looks awful shallow to me. I am getting an average velocity out of ten rounds of 671 fps. I want to get the velocity up at least into the mid 800's. I was going to bump up the charge weight but then I thought maybe an OAL change might be in order especially with the seating depth being so shallow. I spent a few hours researching published load data and forum posts just to get a clue but no cigar. Anyone have any experience loading this bullet in this configuration that may be able to shed some light on my weary mind?

 

[gamestalker]

With only .2 gr. between min and max for a charge table, I would go ahead and bump the charge up, cause 671 fps indicates it's not producing typical pressures.

What are you using to measure those little bitty charges. IMO, if you haven't already done so, I would verify the charge, pull a couple and weigh them.

The oal your using should be fine as long as they're plunking fine, and as you've already done, checked them for feed, fit, and function.

Also, have you measure the bullets to make sure they're actually .355" and aren't maybe a little bit under sized. Anything under .355" could cause lower velocities, .001" is all it would take to effect velocity.

GS

 

[steve4102]

OAL is Always Bullet and Firearm specific, never manual specific.

Start here and find the correct OAL for your choice of bullet in your firearm.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

 

[LiveLife]

+1. Max OAL is determined by the barrel and working OAL is the length that reliably feed and chamber from the magazine.

Xtreme Bullets .355, 100gr copper plated flat nose over 2.9gr, of HP-38

.984 and it would not fit through the ejection port. Dropped down to .975 and it cycles and functions fine. What I do not like at that OAL is the seating depth. It looks awful shallow to me. I am getting an average velocity out of ten rounds of 671 fps.

I want to get the velocity up at least into the mid 800's. I was going to bump up the charge weight but then I thought maybe an OAL change might be in order especially with the seating depth being so shallow.

Because X-Treme 100 gr RNFP's nose profile with the tip missing, you'll need to use shorter OAL than RN and I used .945" for my TCP when I worked up W231/HP-38 using 2.6/2.8/3.0 gr charges - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=748320

X-Treme 100 gr RNFP W231/HP-38 loads produces less snappy recoil (I decided to use 10/10 scale for Tula factory load):

- 2.6 gr under 1" group (4/10 felt recoil)
- 2.8 gr 1.25" (6/10 felt recoil)
- 3.0 gr 1.25" (8/10 felt recoil)

 

[Quags]

I'm loading the exact same bullet:

2.9 gr W231 (HP38)
OAL .0975"
Mixed Brass

Cycles Bersa 380, TCP, and Beretta 84F.....

 

[LiveLife]

While barrels with longer leade/freebore will accommodate FP bullets at longer length, you will start to lose neck tension/bullet seating depth for initial chamber pressure build.

While TCP barrel/magazine allowed longer lengths, I used .945" as a compromise.

 

[lckdnldd]

I appreciate all of your responses. Just FYI the max OAL for my LCP is 1.08 and the max working OAL is approximately .975 or maybe just a thousandth or two more. These Xtreme bullets are all .3550 to .3555 in diameter but their length does vary somewhat. Using the plunk test the rim of the cartridge sets just below the barrel hood. My main concern was the shallow to me seating depth. If that is safe I planned on bumping up the charge weight to 3.0 - 3.1 but I was curious to see what others thought of trying a shorter OAL before bumping up the charge weight. The charge weight max and minimum for this load are much more limited than the OAL. My concern with shortening the OAL is overpressure which from my research can appear suddenly in .380 auto loads. The SAMMI specs say I have plenty of room to shorten the OAL but I tend to proceed with caution when entering foreign ground. To answer your question gamestalker. "What are you using to measure those little bitty charges." The Lee Pro Auto Disk using a modified Adjustable Charge Bar. I can get it to drop as low as 1.5 grains but no less. I use a Lee Safety Scale for charge weight measurements. When working up a new load I zero the scale, set desired weight, run ten drops through the measure and check the eleventh for weight. Then I weigh the next five rounds consecutively to check for consistency after-which every fifth round during the test loads reloading process. Thanks again to all who have responded so far.

 

[firecaptain53]

380 Load

I load that same bullet for an assortment of firearms, Glock, Kahr and Bersa Thunder. I use WW231 at 3.1 or 3.2grans and find that oal is pretty close for all these models. The Glock and Kahr run the best at .965 and the Bersa at .955 respectfully. It has been my experience the 2.8 to 3.0 is too light for proper functioning all the time and the slight increase to 3.1 or 3.2 make it just right for me. Your milage my vary.

 

[jell-dog]

While barrels with longer leade/freebore will accommodate FP bullets at longer length, you will start to lose neck tension/bullet seating depth for initial chamber pressure build.

While TCP barrel/magazine allowed longer lengths, I used .945" as a compromise.

^^^^^+1^^^^^
This COL works great for this bullet in my Bersa Firestorm 380!
Just my $0.02 worth
JD

 

[joneb]

I load the Xtreme 100gr FP at .950" for a Bersa 380. works quite well.

 

[lauderdale]

Extm. 100g. F.P. @.945/Berretta Pico/G42/BERSA.

 

[Ryushin]

.935 Here with 3.0gr of Titegroup at 893fps out of a Sig P238HD. Shot thousands of these with no issues at all.

 

[lckdnldd]

I loaded up some Xtreme .355, 100gr. CPFP's with an OAL of .965, .955, .945 over 3.0 gr. of HP38 today. Hopefully I will be able to try them out tomorrow. I will let you all know my results.

 

[lckdnldd]

Strange results. Went out back to chrono these loads and had 17 duds in a row. All 17 had strikes on the primers. The strikes looked deep enough that the primers should have fired but no cigar. Tried 6 Hornady 90gr. XTP"s and all fired without a problem. I primed these cases with Win. SPP about two weeks ago along with 150 others and they all shot without issue. I broke all 17 down and deprimed. The primer mixture looked somewhat charred/melted but there was still a bit of red tint to it (images below). I plan on loading up some more tonight and see how they work out tomorrow. I'm kinda stumped on this one. When I seat a primer I feel for the moment the primer bottoms out in the cup. They usually seat just a bit below flush.

 

[LiveLife]

If other Win SP primers fired, you may not have seated them deep enough but you posted you seated them slightly below flush ...

When I seat a primer I feel for the moment the primer bottoms out in the cup. They usually seat just a bit below flush.

The initial resistance you feel is the anvil feet hitting the bottom of the primer pocket. You should keep seating the primer until you feel the second lighter resistance which is anvil feet riding up the primer cup pushed by the bottom of pocket to set the anvil tip against the priming compound. I usually just give a firm push until the primers don't go any deeper. Properly seated primers are usually .004" below flush and I have even seated them to crush depth of .008" below flush with flattening of the cup and they still went bang- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7810685#post7810685

If you are using European Fiocchi/Tula/Wolf primers with slightly larger metric sized cups, you may not be able to seat primers below flush, especially in once-fired/S&B/RWS brass with tighter primer pockets. But the larger sized primers are good for extending the life of older brass with enlarged primer pockets.

How do you measure .004" below flush? Use the end of the calipers

The picture looks like the indented primer cups are chrome/silver in color. New Winchester primers are brass/bronze colored (see picture of Win SP primers below left). If they are chrome/silver in color, perhaps you bought some old primers?

Comparison picture of different brand primers seated to .004" and .008" below flush

 

[joneb]

Could the off center pin strike be a issue? I have a Colt 1911 that hits the primer off center but it always goes bang.
Winchester primers can be stubborn to seat in some brass, Federal seams to be the easier.

 

[lckdnldd]

Thanks for the reply bds. I seat the primers as deep as they will go. It is an unmistakeable feeling when it bottoms out. The image below is about the standard depth for my priming process. They read .004 but I have never measured them before now. I forgot to mention I had a hang fire on the 18th round. When it fired it fizzled then boom. It also spit some residue onto my face. The rim had a smoked area right beside the primer. The strange thing is I have been working on these loads since last week. I have fired about 132 rounds without any problems . My first thought was the firing pin channel might have gotten some crud in it so I field stripped the LCP and cleaned it thoroughly. Then I went out back and fired the rounds a second time with no success. Oh, by the way the primers are brass/bronze colored. Sorry for the dark images. I am definitely not a photographer.

 

[steve4102]

Did you try and fire them a second or third time?

Nine times out of nine a "dud" primer is the result of not being seated deep enough. A good indication of a short seated primer is if it fired after a second or third attempt.

 

[LiveLife]

lckdnldd, your picture shows Win SP primer cups with quite a "dome" on top. Unfortunately not all primer pocket depths are same and can vary by headstamp (and especially if they were modified by reloaders). So seating .004" below flush may not always ensure anvil tips are properly pre-tensioned against the priming compound in deeper primer pocket cases.

Try seating the primers with greater force until the cup tops are slightly flattened as shown in the picture below (at least flat like .004" below flush primer on the left).

 

[ETXhiker]

I am getting an average velocity out of ten rounds of 671 fps. I want to get the velocity up at least into the mid 800's.

I'm thinking you may not get that velocity out of an LCP with that powder. I have been loading 3.1 gr. of 231 under a 95 gr. Magtech FMJ at about the same OAL you are using (.960 or so.) The book says that is right at max. It is a nice, accurate, light recoiling load, but I finally chronographed it recently and it averaged about 730-740 fps. I'm going to try some other powders and try to get closer to factory velocities.

 

[lckdnldd]

Yes steve4102. I tried each one at least 3 times. I agree bds those pics make the primers look rounded. In reality they are flat. It must be the lighting. I have added a better pic below. If I push any harder on the ram to seat those primers it is going to bend the lever. lol Thanks ETXhiker for posting those velocities. I am thinking the same thing. I have a few other powder types on hand that I can try. All the Win SP primers I have fired in the last couple of weeks are from the same brick. To have 17 in a row not fire is really strange. I have a hard time believing that the primers are defective. They are seated as deep as I can possibly get them plus this is the second reload of these cases. I had no issues the first time around. I am going to try some loads I made today and see if they will fire. I will let you all know how it works out. Thanks to all.

 

[lckdnldd]

Fired the 6 newly made loads without issue. Check out the difference in the strike marks on the primers shown below compared to the ones in my post #14. Earlier today before I built and fired the rounds I broke down the LCP and gave it a very thorough cleaning. ?

 

[LiveLife]

I love happy endings.

PM from OP

Primer issue

Thanks for sharing the info about my primer issue. I ran all the.380 cases I had primed through my press a second time and really put some pressure on the ram to make sure they were seated as deep as I could get them ... it seems to be working fine now. I did notice a different strike mark on the primer.

 

[lckdnldd]

+1.....