Starting up a Gunsmithing Shop?

[LRShooting]

This is not something that will happen for at least 10 years or so, but I have been looking into it and thats something that takes a long time to do.

I am currently looking at finishing out college and taking a enlist contract for 6 years (8 years w/ training). I farm currently ontop of college work and I am doing well, but simply need to do something more with life. Only reason I say this is because I wont be short of money after that period of time.

I have priced some basic machinery like a CNC (30-60k depending) and that would probably be the highest cost. After that, lathes and such are fairly inexpensive compared to the CNC. Im not looking for new, just good used.

I dont care to have a shop that I can make money from, but just like to have for some basic things and to pay off the investment. Itd be like a small time hobby thing basically on the side. I figure I could do the machine work and make bases, rings, etc. Then send stuff off to actually have it case hardened, cerakoted, etc.

I know this is really basic, but Im just trying to get a feel for things. I would say 100k would start out a basic shop fairly easy (tools, equipment, etc. Dont count costs like overhead) and while it may not pay itself very quick, it wouldn't be my main source of income either. Think of it this way...I can buy 400 acres for farming and put out a 400k downpayment plus a few years of payments to end up with a total of about 2 million worth of land. All I am saying is that is proportional and I think that is what gets people sometime. Heck, new combines alone are 500k and they are expensive to run. In comparison, once the initial investments are made for basic gunsmith setup, its fairly cheap considering. Of course the output isn't as high either so its proportional.

Again, I know its very basic, but Im not real informed either. Im just toying with the idea and I think it would be a good way to get things I want (machining equipment! ) and make a little money as well. Even if it takes a while, thats okay. Maybe its completely out of my reach, but I never know till I ask/try.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Pipe dreams are fun, I know I've been there. I'm also a recent graduate (now in grad school) and I was looking at starting my own business.

I don't want to be a killjoy, but 100k for a side business is STEEP, especially in this economica climate. Don't forget that this political climate is risky to try to get into business with firearms.

If you have an engineering degree, and want a CNC machine to start up a machine shop, I'd say "great, go for it". But for a gusmithing shop where people can buy budget parts made in China for a fraction of your operating costs is rsiky because most people don't care about quality, the care about price (see "Walmart").

I'm not saying give up on your dreams, I'm saying start small and build, and remain flexible and have a backup plan. Dumping over 100k into machinery is not that (it will be more expensive.... it always is).

I'd say buy small stuff at first and get your FFL. You can do internet transfers and do tune ups on guns. Or even buy a cerakote spray tools and offer that. Maybe a small lathe to make some small parts. mabe some wood finishing to make custom stocks. From there you can build your empire.

Example: I wanted to open a gym that focused on individual training and small elite membership. Instead of buying machines, a building, equipment, pay staff, worry about lawsuits, bills, utilities, etc etc etc.... I got my personal training certs and decided to make a mobile training platform and train people in their homes with my basic equipment that I can keep in my car. That took the backburner to my career now in mental health and my doctorate schooling. Because life happens. One day I will get back to my dream of owning a small gym, but I need to build it back up from small steps.

I didn't mean to ramble, I'm just trying to relate and keep it as real as possible. Whatever you do, make sure your business in "incorporated" and insured to protect your own finances.

 

[rcmodel]

Best advice?
Start out with plenty of extra money.

The more you start out with, the longer you can stay in business before you go broke.

Here's more..
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760361&highlight=Gunsmith+shop

Rc

 

[45_auto]

This is not something that will happen for at least 10 years or so, but I have been looking into it and thats something that takes a long time to do.

Good job looking ahead.

I am currently looking at finishing out college and taking a enlist contract for 6 years (8 years w/ training).

Good decision. Steady income, serve your country. Pay scales are here:

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money/basic-pay-active-duty-soldiers.html

You'll be an E2 out of basic, maybe make E6 if you're lucky. E6 requires a minimum of 7 years time in service. promotion requirements are here:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/armypromotions/a/armypromotions.htm

But heck, say you're good, make E6 the day you enter the military . That means that you'll make $34K year for 8 years. Total of 34 x 8 = $272K if you don't do anything that will cost you anything (pay taxes, date, have a family, etc.).

I would say 100k would start out a basic shop fairly easy

That is a fact. That'll be a HUGE chunk of cash just for something to play with.

I can buy 400 acres for farming and put out a 400k downpayment

Realistically, you're going to end up with well less than $250K from your military service (a LOT less), so you must be doing extremely well right now while you're in college, or have some very wealthy parents to count on $400K in 10 years.

Again, I know its very basic, but Im not real informed either.

A little more research might be useful. For instance, why enlist if you have a college degree? Why not go in as an officer? Why not do ROTC in college and let us taxpayers pay for some of your education?

 

[243winxb]

Repair cars, not guns, if you want to make a living at it.

 

[HexHead]

I didn't see anything here about attending gunsmithing school.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I am a gunsmith and a CNC/tool and die machinist so I can speak from both sides of the platform. There is nothing wrong with having a business that pays for itself as a hobby. Gunsmithing and CNC machining are two completely different disciplines that have a little bit of overlap. Both have necessary training/experience required to become proficient. I will speak on both. First and foremost I would invest in yourself before you invest in equipment.

Gunsmithing: If you are thinking about becoming a gunsmith, I recommend formal training. Nothing can replace hands-on instruction. You can use the GI bill to pay for the training at a school that is accredited. This will give you a base platform to work from so your learning curve isn't so steep when you are on your own. Gunsmithing encompasses a diverse set of skills (machining, wood working, diagnostics, etc.) and you will either have to master them all or pick a specialization. The more you learn before attending a school, the more you will get out of it. I would also look into liability. Have a full understanding of what it is and how to protect yourself while in business (liability release waivers, insurance, legal representation etc.)

CNC machining: To be an accomplished CNC machinist you will also need to know 3-D CAD programming as well. There are also schools for this. They will be able to teach you machining theory, as well as programming. It is possible to be a self-taught machinist but it will take much longer.
When it comes to purchasing a CNC machine you will need to anticipate what you are going to make. Many small parts can be made on a knee mill with a CNC package without the huge expense of a larger cabinet machine. The cabinet machines are nice because they are self-contained (easier chip cleanup) but they require quite a bit of maintenance (coolant management). I would look at a used machine. As others have said, you can add to it later. Most companies fail because they start too big too soon and misjudge their needs. Hope that helps.

 

[Zeke/PA]

No way ,no more !
The custom rifle craze of about 50 or so years ago is now defunct as is stockmaking, milsurp actions etc.
Today's offerings in the gun arena are basically trouble free so I really don't know how a "gunshop" would be a good investment.
Exactly WHO offers custom stockwork these days, by THIS I mean a stock made from a BLANK ??

 

[N.Schafer]

What kind of gunsmithing are you imagining? We have seven gunsmiths in house and do it all (even custom stocks from a blank) but don't have a CNC mill.

The CNC could be useful for the manufacturing side of things but that is separate from gunsmithing. We farm out to a machine shop if we need to do a run of obsolete parts.

I would agree with others in that you should get some training and find what you really want to do. Then focus on that. Some like wood work, others machining, others just fondling and sighting-in guns.

 

[LRShooting]

Just wanted to say thanks for the replies! I never thought about the economical things or the legalistic issues.

Just to refute/correct a few things though...

Realistically, you're going to end up with well less than $250K from your military service (a LOT less), so you must be doing extremely well right now while you're in college, or have some very wealthy parents to count on $400K in 10 years.

This is my fault, I said I can buy 400 acres and would be around a 400k downpayment depending on price of land (I think I had that figured at around 5k/acre which is typical around here). What I meant is I "could" (theoretically) for that much and i was just trying to put things into perspective so that you all understood what my view on it was. I was just saying that while initial investments are large, they also can bring in enough to pay themselves off in 7-10 years. Of course this thread has given me enough insight to see that with gunwork, that may not be the case. However, I do have a good friend that is the same age (19) as me and just bought 450 acres. I didn't ask how much he paid, but he is doing much better than I am at this point and its not out of reach for those who had a good start and begin raising cattle early.

For instance, why enlist if you have a college degree? Why not go in as an officer?

I have taken this into consideration. Few reasons why I didn't...

1) Not gloating, but I did well in school and I am getting paid to go to college now due to excess scholarships. Still bringing out a 4.0 gpa so I should continue doing so for the time being. Therefore, why not use the free money (and make a little) to pay for college, have the experience, and (I know this may sound odd) mature a little more. As far as taxpayers paying for my education, I paid plenty of taxes this year that I would have much rather spent on a new 338 lapua. That being said, I understand that I want my tax money spent on things that need spending on.I assume most are the same way? Government spends enough already on unnecessary stuff and while I realize education important and the program is great for those who are struggling, I simply choose to use scholarship money that people have dedicated to education voluntarily.

2)Besides that, I commute 1 hr 15 min every day back home to work and average 18 hours a semester, so i dont know if I would be able to do the ROTC thing. Other than that, I would like to follow before I lead. I can become an officer later if I so decide (as far as I know and what research has come up with).

3)I dont want to enlist that early, and I feel my chances of success are higher as an educated enlist. May seem pointless to get education and then go serve, but I think its a great way to transition between homelife and being away for months at a time. After I was done, I would have the degree already and would not need to worry about that.


As far as the CNC thing, it seems that I have made it seem like that would be my main thing...which is not what I meant for it to be. I just meant I would have one for making parts when I need them and maybe small scale production of some things like the bases, rings, DBMs, etc. Of course that all takes a lot more than just a machine and CAD/CAM work. I guess I was picturing a small time operation that I could basically do anything like put together, build, design, create, and customize firearms with such as building precision arms, doing barrel work, etc. I figure once I have paid off initial investments, I would be happy as it is and would not care too much if I was making profit as long as it wasnt cutting too much into my farming too the point where I had to cut back. As my neighbor said, "Its hard to charge people for something when you love doing it so much." I know Im leaving a lot of stuff out, but just wanted to make that clear.

 

[LRShooting]

What kind of gunsmithing are you imagining? We have seven gunsmiths in house and do it all (even custom stocks from a blank) but don't have a CNC mill.

The CNC could be useful for the manufacturing side of things but that is separate from gunsmithing. We farm out to a machine shop if we need to do a run of obsolete parts.

I would agree with others in that you should get some training and find what you really want to do. Then focus on that. Some like wood work, others machining, others just fondling and sighting-in guns.

All encompassing! I dont need to put out production line quantities though. Just small time local gunsmithing for folks and get FFL and licensing that would allow me to get restricted items (supressors, etc). Also mentioned maybe making small runs of parts like bases, etc. Although I honestly think it would be hard to do that kind of stuff because why not just buy one from TPS, EGW, NF, etc. Couple guys around here have ffl and what ever else and its not super hard to get. As I have said before, not looking to make a living, just looking to have the tools and equipment and be able to pay them off.

As another guy said tho, 100k is probably too steep and I could find it cheaper. I usually overshoot costs and undershoot income just to make things come out better than I calculate. Of course I miss alot of costs too though...

 

[LRShooting]

Best advice?
Start out with plenty of extra money.

The more you start out with, the longer you can stay in business before you go broke.

Here's more..
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760361&highlight=Gunsmith+shop

Rc

I read the thread...seems pretty intense. I didn't realize the amount of legal issues you can run into o.0. Seems as if it may be easier to save up money, buy a cnc, lathe, mill, tools, etc. to do stuff for myself alone, and just do things for free for buddies.

Ive known you can get away with a lot of things buy doing things for "free." For example, you cannot legally sell meat from lets say a deer. But you can, however, give them the deer and sell your services to process it even if its at an elevated rate. Of course depending on how bad FDA wants to get you in trouble, Im sure you could still get nailed for it.

 

[45_auto]

I think I had that figured at around 5k/acre which is typical around here.

...

However, I do have a good friend that is the same age (19) as me and just bought 450 acres.

You have a 19 year old friend that just bought 2.25 million dollars worth of real estate? You need to do what he's doing and quit wasting your time on college.

You might as well ignore the advice of everyone posting here, you're well out of the league of this forum.

 

[LRShooting]

Sir, I think I know what your implying and its not right. I do not have time to explain thoroughly right now but I will tell you he is blessed with opportunity and they farm a lot as well as raise cattle. Depending on how much support he has gotten from his dad in his farming operation, it's not hard to do. I, on the other hand, am struggLing to start and while I use big numbers, it's because they are factual values and loans are required. I do not think it's right to say I'm out of my league for stating facts. Its no small investment.

Also, 2.5 mil equates to a minimum 500k down pay. It's allot, but not near what you are thinking. Depending on loan length, good land pays for itself quickly considering the amount of initial cost.

 

[Jim K]

Please don't take this personally, as I can assure you it is not meant that way.

This is a topic that comes up on this and other sites every couple of months. Basically it is the same subject - making a business out of a hobby. And the answers are always basically the same - establishing a business takes money, time and a lot of hard work, and it must be treated as a business. If it is treated as a hobby, the result will be a failed business and loss of the startup capital.

Then the original poster insists that, for many reasons, those things don't apply to him and that he knows more about the issue than folks who have been professionals in the field, often for decades. ("Then why ask?", says the skeptic.)

If you do decide to get started in the business, good luck. I wish you all the best and hope you prosper. If you decide to spend a lot of money setting up a professional grade shop to tinker for free, good luck with that, but don't confuse the two. And if you tinker with other people's guns, you are not home free. If you ruin your best friend's gun he can rather quickly become your former best friend and sue you. If you do something wrong and a gun you work on fails and injures someone, the courts won't care if you charged for the work or not, you are liable and you better have plenty of insurance.

Jim

 

[LRShooting]

Please don't take this personally, as I can assure you it is not meant that way.

This is a topic that comes up on this and other sites every couple of months. Basically it is the same subject - making a business out of a hobby. And the answers are always basically the same - establishing a business takes money, time and a lot of hard work, and it must be treated as a business. If it is treated as a hobby, the result will be a failed business and loss of the startup capital.

Then the original poster insists that, for many reasons, those things don't apply to him and that he knows more about the issue than folks who have been professionals in the field, often for decades. ("Then why ask?", says the skeptic.)

If you do decide to get started in the business, good luck. I wish you all the best and hope you prosper. If you decide to spend a lot of money setting up a professional grade shop to tinker for free, good luck with that, but don't confuse the two. And if you tinker with other people's guns, you are not home free. If you ruin your best friend's gun he can rather quickly become your former best friend and sue you. If you do something wrong and a gun you work on fails and injures someone, the courts won't care if you charged for the work or not, you are liable and you better have plenty of insurance.

Jim

Nope none taken, its good advice. Thank you.

As in my reply to rcmodel (always helpful in the forums), I didn't realize the legality of things. I understand parts of the economics, but not enough to just go do something like that. Therefore, it would be a better idea to set up a "tinkering" shop with much lower end equipment not capable of anything in production capacity. Just something to do what I want.

As you say tho, still liability even when free work is done. I didn't think about that till you mentioned it, but we, for example, have to have liability on the farm incase some dimwit trespasses and hurts them self. Im sure that a select fast food chain thought the same thing about liability until a women spilled coffee that was "too hot" and sued for it. Taking what you say into consideration, I dont know if you can be reasonably sued for doing select things like cerakoting, bases, stock work etc, but maybe thats a limit to the work done? As in no trigger, head spacing, barrel, or other functioning part work. Although Im sure I can be sued for simply putting a mark in someones gun if they so chose without proper waivers, etc.

Anyways, Im done rambling . Thanks for the reply. Lot of stuff here to think about with all the posts. Surprising how fast that idea got turned around.

 

[rcmodel]

You can't even take possession of another persons gun and keep it overnight to Cerocoat it without an FFL, bound books to record it, etc.

Buy an old Bridgeport mill, a 48" lathe, a good belt sander or two, and a floor stand drill press.
Then have some fun using them!

rc

 

[Comrade Mike]

Like the other guys have said, you're trying to prove certain market forces don't apply to you despite the fact we've seen this thread multiple times before.

Your best bet here is to keep your hobby exactly that, a hobby. There are plenty of hobbyist machinists and wood workers out there with serious equipment they paid for with a lucrative career elsewhere.

 

[45_auto]

I, on the other hand, am struggLing to start and while I use big numbers, it's because they are factual values and loans are required.

I feel my chances of success are higher as an educated enlist.

Think of it this way...I can buy 400 acres for farming and put out a 400k downpayment plus a few years of payments to end up with a total of about 2 million worth of land.

Also, 2.5 mil equates to a minimum 500k down pay. It's allot, but not near what you are thinking. Depending on loan length, good land pays for itself quickly considering the amount of initial cost.

I'm pretty sure that a $500K down payment is pretty close to the half-million that I'm thinking of.

I can't figure out where you're coming from. You're talking about struggling and enlisting for 8 years, which will give you less than 250K gross income over those 8 years. But you also talk about putting down $400K or $500K. Possibly you have parents who are very well off or you're counting on a big trust fund. If so, that makes a huge difference into how much money you can waste playing at gunsmithing. How exactly do you plan to come up with $400K?

 

[LRShooting]

I'm pretty sure that a $500K down payment is pretty close to the half-million that I'm thinking of.

I can't figure out where you're coming from. You're talking about struggling and enlisting for 8 years, which will give you less than 250K gross income over those 8 years. But you also talk about putting down $400K or $500K. Possibly you have parents who are very well off or you're counting on a big trust fund. If so, that makes a huge difference into how much money you can waste playing at gunsmithing. How exactly do you plan to come up with $400K?

Honestly, that depends on cattle market and even then, I don't know what will happen during the period I'm gone. As in who will take care if them and how much that will cost for them to do so. I'm struggling because I am balancing school, work, future decisions and every extra penny right now is going into capital. I'm not saying I will have that much to buy land. My situation would call for an amount that is much smaller...say 100-200 ac and renting the rest that I would have capacity for. When I said I can buy, I meant I could in a theoretical situation. That was my fault and a grammar fail.

I never meant to mean it like money was unlimited and I could just go do gun smithing stuff with out an issue. My problem was I didn't realize the other costs concerning legal issues and insurance. There's also the problem with demand for quality parts vs cheap parts from say walmart.

Thanks to this thread, the possibility of actually making large capital purchases to try and pay off through business work would be a ill advised thing to do and I understand that and will do something like rc said and keep the hobby a hobby for my, and only my, firearms.

The purpose of this thread was too basically figure out the above and it has been thoroughly answered. I did not mean to get land prices and my other decisions involved. I just wanted replies to have knowledge of my perspective on it so that it was easier to answer appropriately.

 

[boom boom]

LRShooter,

First, think about which branch that you are planning to enlist. Navy and Air Force, in general, are more technical and could give you the machinist skills that you seek. Machinist's skills can be transferred to working with firearms while the opposite is not always true.

The Army and Marines are less technically oriented, in general. BTW, that is not intended as a slight to other services--My father was a retired Army officer and my grandfather was an aviation machinist's mate in the Navy. I was in the Air Force and went to a joint training base run by the Army for advanced training, and I had uncles distributed across the services.

As someone who grew up in a family small business (not gunsmithing) and had a father that created several small businesses, I learned several lessons--one is that you need a basic knowledge of accounting and business practices such as finance. Second, an investment in a business must be evaluated without emotion and prejudgement as much a possible--if you want to make money then make money--if you want your business to satisfy emotional needs then it will probably end up neither making money nor satisfying your emotional needs. Third, know when to get out--when it is obvious that a business is ailing--you must decide quickly whether to close it, sell it, or whether it might survive with more future sacrifice and whether that sacrifice is worth it. Sunk costs should never part of the calculation as you cannot recreate the past. Four, knowledge in your field is an absolute--consider working post separation for a gunsmith even as an apprentice for little or no pay. Formal school is useful but consider that formal training plus an apprenticeship is even more valuable preparation. If you have not done so, working with customers is an art, doing things like upselling is important for the margins, keeping up with paperwork, and quickly determining which jobs would be profitable and which would not, are things that you learn by actually doing.

BTW, my initial bachelor's degree was business economics, my family business was in livestock and retailing for feed and farm supply, my AF stint was in Civil Engineering, and I am currently working in higher education as a tenured professor who counsels people daily on careers. As usual, some great advice from other posters listed above, and as usual, ymmv.

 

[boom boom]

Oh, one last thing--3D printing is probably going to be the manufacturing technique for many items in the future. I would strongly suggest getting a grounding it in and CAD.

 

[LRShooting]

LRShooter,

First, think about which branch that you are planning to enlist. Navy and Air Force, in general, are more technical and could give you the machinist skills that you seek. Machinist's skills can be transferred to working with firearms while the opposite is not always true.

The Army and Marines are less technically oriented, in general. BTW, that is not intended as a slight to other services--My father was a retired Army officer and my grandfather was an aviation machinist's mate in the Navy. I was in the Air Force and went to a joint training base run by the Army for advanced training, and I had uncles distributed across the services.

As someone who grew up in a family small business (not gunsmithing) and had a father that created several small businesses, I learned several lessons--one is that you need a basic knowledge of accounting and business practices such as finance. Second, an investment in a business must be evaluated without emotion and prejudgement as much a possible--if you want to make money then make money--if you want your business to satisfy emotional needs then it will probably end up neither making money nor satisfying your emotional needs. Third, know when to get out--when it is obvious that a business is ailing--you must decide quickly whether to close it, sell it, or whether it might survive with more future sacrifice and whether that sacrifice is worth it. Sunk costs should never part of the calculation as you cannot recreate the past. Four, knowledge in your field is an absolute--consider working post separation for a gunsmith even as an apprentice for little or no pay. Formal school is useful but consider that formal training plus an apprenticeship is even more valuable preparation. If you have not done so, working with customers is an art, doing things like upselling is important for the margins, keeping up with paperwork, and quickly determining which jobs would be profitable and which would not, are things that you learn by actually doing.

BTW, my initial bachelor's degree was business economics, my family business was in livestock and retailing for feed and farm supply, my AF stint was in Civil Engineering, and I am currently working in higher education as a tenured professor who counsels people daily on careers. As usual, some great advice from other posters listed above, and as usual, ymmv.

Very nice feed back. Thank you.

Planning on Navy SEAL. Lot of hard work and dedication but Im gonna train for it and make that my goal and if life does not allow me to do so, I am at least in the top shape ill ever be in. If I do, Im going to be one happy fellow knowing I am doing something that is not based on trying to make a living.

 

[Comrade Mike]

As someone who was recently in your shoes, don't be so quick to set your future in stone. My life, and life goals, changed more than I could ever have imagined from 19 until I graduated college. Not to detract from military service, but 18-30 are some of the best years of your life. Its youth and freedom you will never get back. Think long and hard before you think about giving those years to the government.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Well with negative feedback like this no wonder there is a shortage of gunsmiths. We FINALLY had a gunsmith move into our county about a year or so ago. The only one that didn't strictly cater to LEOs. Not many months after he opened he converted his business to commercial ammo loading and not open to the public. Only a couple of months later his business burned to the ground. I rarely have need for a gunsmith as I do the vast majority of my own work but occasionally need some lathe work done that I'm not equipped to do and have to ship to Selma to get it done. That adds $50 postage there and back to the overall cost. I turn work away all the time because I no longer have an FFL and can't legally do the things they want done (usually hot bluing) even though I could easily do it for them. Before you say just get another FFL, the answer is a resounding NO. I don't want to see anyone go into a business only to fail but if no-one ever tries......