Statement in my Cultural Anthropology textbook...

[DRZinn]

(no discussion of any kind, just a picture of an electric chair and a painting of an Aztec human sacrifice):

What these two pictures have in common is that both are examples of institutionalized magical responses to concerns many harbor in their societies. In death penalty states, executing criminals does no more to deter violent crimes than Aztec human sacrifices did to keep the sun in the sky.

The worst thing is that I've seen this kind of pap before, and pointed it out to the professor (Ellie, if you catch this, it's Lynn Gamble again), who simply acted (badly) concerned and thanked me for the feedback. The way she teaches the class is right along those lines....

 

[SomeKid]

I started a thread a while back regarding the college indoctrination I had in my Psychology class. Thankfully, I aced the last test, got an A in the course, and can skip the final/throw away the book.

 

[Janitor]

In death penalty states, executing criminals does no more to deter violent crimes than Aztec human sacrifices did to keep the sun in the sky.

This is patently false.

I challange anyone to cite one single example of any person who's been visited by the executioner causing any more problems of any sort afterwards.

Anyone?

I didn't think so.
-

 

[Ransom]

Well, considering murder rates kept rising after it was put in place there isnt much evidence to say it does. I guess you could argue that there isnt full on proof that it doesnt, so a statement of fact like that is somewhat misleading but its hardly outright false.

The way I see it is much like we view gun control laws. Violence happens no matter what. People kill regardless of what laws are on the books and what the outcome of those crimes will be. I doubt your average criminal is thinking about the end result of his crimes. Hell, most people commit crimes thinking they'll never be caught.


edit:

I challange anyone to cite one single example of any person who's been visited by the executioner causing any more problems of any sort afterwards.

Heh heh, I'd like to hear anti death penalty people argue against that.

 

[Janitor]

Actually, I think execution is every bit the deternce it's meant to be.

I don't see it as something to scare other potential murderers. As you've aptly pointed out - that doesn't work at any level. But it does a sound job of detering those that have gone all the way through the process.

In fact, my (admittedly quick) research shows roughly zero recidivism.
-

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I challange anyone to cite one single example of any person who's been visited by the executioner causing any more problems of any sort afterwards.

I can't find an example, but can you cite a study that says people who have been executed do not commit further crimes?

 

[Janitor]

I can't find an example, but can you cite a study that says people who have been executed do not commit further crimes?

Touche'.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
-

 

[geekWithA.45]

FWIW, I do recall some criminological studies that indicate that criminals do not consider the threat of execution for their crimes during their decision making cycle, and therefore concludes that such threat has no impact on crime. IIRC, references were also made to studies comparing crime rates between states with and without death penalties.


Criminals are detered by the immediate threat of getting caught or shot by either a policeman or an armed citizen, and very little else.

In psych terms, it's a matter of immediacy: the abstract threat of possibly being executed in 10 or 15 years if caught, if convicted, if appeals fail etc has little traction on the criminals imagination compared to the evaluation as to whether the criminal might be shot RIGHT NOW.


The anthro book could have made that point without the sneering, idiologically driven condescencion.

 

[NCP24]

It’s cost effective.

 

[torpid]

...executing criminals does no more to deter violent crimes than Aztec human sacrifices did to keep the sun in the sky.

Who is to say that we don't have the Aztecs to thank for keeping this planet from becoming a frozen rock?

.

 

[migoi]

The death penalty...

isn't about deterrence for me. It's about removing any possibility of any more earthly pleasures for the scum that harmed me or someone I care about. If someone actually accomplishes one of the five things I would be justified in using lethal force to stop them from accomplishing had I been there then they should be put to death upon conviction of that crime.

No victim's family should ever have to witness acts such as those video-taped of Richard Speck getting high and having sex with his jail house partner. It is to remove all possibility they will ever enjoy themselves again.

migoi

 

[Tequila_Sauer]

"isn't about deterrence for me. It's about removing any possibility of any more earthly pleasures for the scum that harmed me or someone I care about"


I couldn't agree more with this. I don't think we should execute criminals to tell other criminals not to commit crimes, people break the law regardless of the punishment. I think we should execute criminals when they commit crimes so heinous that I can't think of a better end for them than to let the bastard fry. They did something awful and I don't want them on this planet anymore, they don't deserve life.

Either way, I hate those classes. They're such BS and even the teachers know it, that's why so many of them are irritating and mean. They have a chip on their shoulder because their class is insignificant. I showed up for exactly 5 of my psychology classes: first day, test 1, experiment reports due date, test 2, final. Aced the class, it was a joke.

 

[lysander]

As a specific deterrent for the executed criminal...the death penalty is highly effective...in fact 100% effective.

As a general deterrent for society at large and those contemplating a capital offense the death penalty is a total failure.

So the real question in the debate becomes: What is the purpose of the execution? Are we simply eliminating a miscreant...or are we sending a message to other would-be miscreants?

Some would argue that the death penalty would be more effective as a general deterrent if we were more active and aggressive with our execution schedules. I would counter by saying that the State should be required to meet a VERY high standard before they throw the switch. IMHO the death of a single innocent man at the hands of the State invalidates the entire concept. The ends do not justify the means and I would not want to live in country where it was "easy" to execute a criminal...one never knows when they may have the powers of the State directed at them.

By protecting our most reprehensible citizens...we protect all citizens. You know...equal rights for all and that other jazz.

 

[RockportRifle]

A talking point to bring up in discussions on executions

Anytime you are in a conversation about the use of the death penalty, just bring up a Mr. Kenneth Allen McDuff. There are evil folks out there and they can't be reformed and Mr. McDuff is the poster boy for them all.

http://www.geocities.com/verbal_plainfield/i-p/mcduff.html

 

[boofus]

As a specific deterrent for the executed criminal...the death penalty is highly effective...in fact 100% effective

Not quite 100%. Dead people quite frequently come back to vote Democrat.

 

[Hypnogator]

FWIW, I do recall some criminological studies that indicate that criminals do not consider the threat of execution for their crimes during their decision making cycle, and therefore concludes that such threat has no impact on crime.

Precisely. They surveyed convicted murderers about whether the threat of execution deterred them from their crimes. Talk about your self-evident answer! :banghead:

Perhaps they should have surveyed the general population to find out how many who might have been considering murder didn't commit the crime out of fear of execution!

The same holds true for most gun control studies. It's easy to catalog how many crimes are committed with guns, but very difficult (and therefore easy to ignore) to show how many crimes were deterred by guns.

 

[yorec]

Not quite 100%. Dead people quite frequently come back to vote Democrat.

Snicker....

No way to really tell if a couple folks out there decided at the last minute to not kill that other person because they might be executed later, but I'd bet it's happened somewhere sometime - there have been enough murders done. And on the other hand, if there was no death penalty - how many would have backed out because they were going to be executed as a result? Zero, that's how many.

 

[Iain]

Anytime you are in a conversation about the use of the death penalty, just bring up a Mr. Kenneth Allen McDuff...

However the effective counter comes from the cases that later turned out to be innocent. Just the other day on here there was an article about a witness who now claims that he was pressured by the police into giving false witness, and how the person he claims he incorrectly identified was later executed.

Don't see how it can be cost effective when it requires so many levels of appeal to implement it, and still it goes wrong. Often enough to deeply worry me. There are some very famous examples from when we had capital punishment, some of those people were exonerated as recently as 2003. Not much good to someone who has been dead for forty odd years.

So I guess whether it is an effective deterrent is irrelevant to me.

 

[rick_reno]

It’s cost effective.

It would be if when the sentence is given they were walked out the door and executed immediately. Unfortunately, that's not what happens. The fact sheet from Death Penalty Focus of California estimates that, due to constitutionally-mandated safeguards, the death penalty in Los Angeles County costs over $638,991 more per defendant than life imprisonment without possibility of parole. This estimate includes costs of trial, automatic appeals to the state supreme court, and incarcaration.

 

[armoredman]

I can't find an example, but can you cite a study that says people who have been executed do not commit further crimes?

Match names and headstones, and if any published data, other than paranormal, states they are suspects in crimes committed after thier execution date, I will eat my hat.

 

[Gunpacker]

Yep, the murder rate goes up in spite of the "death penalty". No wonder. The death penalty is given in a very small percentage of murderers convicted. Of those convicted, only a very small percentage are ever actually executed, and then only 20 years after the conviction. In effect there is no death penalty to consider in committing a murder. The likelyhood of being executed never enters a prospective murderer, since basically, there is no likelyhood of it ever happening. If the resulting penalty for EVERY murder was execution, quickly carried out, it would definitely be a deterrent.
Gee, if specific punishment is not a deterrent, why don't we just eliminate all punishment that doesn't deter a crime. What use is prison if it doesn't deter.
I would submit that all punishment is a deterrent, just not a complete preventative. In the case of those receiving punishment, it does prevent for the period of the punishment. In the case of death, it is forever. Since recidivisim is so high, forever is just the right period for most murderers.

 

[rangerbill]

i am takeing these indoctrination classes also, as a matter of fact i just finished a cultural anthropology class myself. the aztec's scarifice might not have been truly for religious purposes. there is a school of thought that the whole idea of the sacrifices were set up not so much as a religious ritual but it was to provide needed PROTIEN in the diet. hey, livin on corn alone gets boring. so this story may have been made up to feed the people.

and you wonder where our government gets their slick ideas

 

[lysander]

rick_reno said:

It would be if when the sentence is given they were walked out the door and executed immediately. Unfortunately, that's not what happens. The fact sheet from Death Penalty Focus of California estimates that, due to constitutionally-mandated safeguards, the death penalty in Los Angeles County costs over $638,991 more per defendant than life imprisonment without possibility of parole. This estimate includes costs of trial, automatic appeals to the state supreme court, and incarcaration.

italics mine

Are you suggesting that constitutional safeguards be relaxed? Would you really want to live in a state where once you are convicted and sentenced you are walked out behind the courthouse and shot?

What ratio is acceptable to you? 100 guilty per 1 innocent? 10 to 1?

 

[longeyes]

All I know is the sun came up this morning.

Keep the executions going.

 

[Chrontius]

Are you suggesting that constitutional safeguards be relaxed? Would you really want to live in a state where once you are convicted and sentenced you are walked out behind the courthouse and shot?

What ratio is acceptable to you? 100 guilty per 1 innocent? 10 to 1?

+1 Obvious -- for all the constitutional outrage on this page, I'm surprised so few people are taking this position.