States being considered for Libertarian utopia

Status
Not open for further replies.

rick_reno

member
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
3,027
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0427libertarian27.html

States being considered for Libertarian utopia
Nicholas K. Geranios
Associated Press
Apr. 27, 2003 12:00 AM


COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho - Thousands of invaders have their eyes on Idaho. Or Montana. Or New Hampshire.

Free State Project hopes to persuade 20,000 advocates of limited government to move to one lightly populated state and create a Libertarian utopia.

The idea by a Yale political science student is gaining popularity as about 3,100 people around the country have climbed aboard.

"It's perfectly clear that people who believe in small government are outnumbered by people who want to be taken care of by the government," said Elizabeth McKinstry, 33, of Hillsdale, Mich., vice president of the project.

"Rather than change the whole nation, it makes sense for all of us to gather in one place."

The project has identified 10 "candidate" states, all with populations below 1.5 million and politics friendly to limited government. They are Idaho, Montana, Alaska, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, New Hampshire, Maine, Delaware and Vermont.

When the number of registered Free State supporters reaches 5,000, likely by the end of the year, they will vote on which state to target. Then supporters will have five years to move, with an ultimate goal of 20,000 going to the winning state.

In their new home, Free Staters will work to abolish laws regulating drugs, gambling, prostitution, guns, drinking and other individual issues. They will seek to privatize many government functions, such as schools. They will try to slash taxes for everything except public safety and defense.

Free State Project is the brainchild of Jason Sorens, 26, a doctoral candidate in political science at Yale. He got the idea after the 2000 elections, when he felt Libertarians needed a new way to promote their cause. He wrote an article promoting the idea, and the project began in July 2001.

"Even in an era where Americans are heavily overtaxed, private solutions work better than government programs," Sorens said.

He believes that 20,000 committed activists in a state of fewer than 1.5 million is enough to sway the minds of residents.

That is necessary because "we're not going to be a large enough group to take over," Sorens said.

The goal is to reduce state government by one-half to two-thirds in the chosen state, said McKinstry, who spoke recently in Coeur d'Alene about the project.

"We are mostly anti-regulation," she said. "We are not an anarchist group at all."

Ben Irvin of Pocatello, Idaho, who calls himself the lead promoter for the Western states, believes Idaho will emerge as the compromise winner. The state has 1.2 million residents, a fairly robust economy and a big distrust of government.

Idaho's major downside is considered the one-quarter of the population who are Mormon, Irvin said. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aren't likely to support legalizing prostitution and drugs, ending taxes on booze and tobacco, or a strict separation of church and state, Irvin said.

Montana, with 900,000 residents, also is a strong contender, in part because it is more socially permissive than Idaho, Irvin said.

But the state's small economy would make it difficult for 20,000 outsiders to find jobs, he said.

Wyoming's population of less than 500,000 is the smallest in the nation, which has drawn plenty of interest. Irvin believes many who favor Wyoming don't really understand the rugged, nearly primitive nature of much of the state.

He figures North Dakota won't win because "no one wants to go out there."

Alaska is the one candidate that Free State Project founder Sorens would reject because, he said, "My wife is not willing to move there."

New Hampshire has jobs and a strong anti-government tradition, but much of the movement's strength is in the West, and most Westerners would not move to the East, Irvin said.
 
Interesting concept. And here's a question for THR members who subscribe to FSP: Why not try a pilot program in a single rural county? Many of the day-to-day ordnances, education systems, law enforcement (sheriffs) are organized at the county level.

Remember the Rajheeshee's? They took over a little town called Antelope, in Wasco County, OR, and got as far as renaming the town for their cult leader, before deciding to poison the county commissioners over zoning disputes, IIRC. Convictions followed.

Many rural counties have populations in the low thousands...it would be infinitely easier to create a majority voting bloc in a single rural county than an entire state, and it seems that by gaining control of local law enforcement (following the notion that the sheriff is the ultimate law enforcement officer of the land), they could try out the concepts put forward by FSP, albeit reduced by one order of magnitude.

And, facing off against a single state government over autonomy issues, as compared to fedgov, would be much easier. If this program got enough momentum to be noticed in WashDC, national authorities would be much more inclined to send in the HRT barbecue squad, than would state officials from Boise or Helena.

Has this option been discussed?
 
El Tejon - We are neither communists nor utopians. It makes a nice headline, but you ought to look deeper than a headline before you form an opinion of the group. We have no illusions about creating a perfect society, we just want to make our society freer.

Hammer4nc - From the Project FAQ,
Q. Why don't we try "taking over" a city, a county, a group of counties, or a foreign country?

A. Counties do have some substantial powers, but states have even more powers, including control over most sales, income, and property taxes, control of the state police, and full control over statewide legislation. State legislatures have absolute authority over counties and towns: they can alter, abolish, and overrule them at will. At the same time, it would be more difficult to get a few hundred people to move to a single county than to get a few thousand people to move to a single state. As larger territories, states have more diverse economies & communities than counties. Trying to break off a group of counties to form a new state would not work. The Constitution requires the Congress and state legislature to approve the creation of any new state, and that would not happen. "Taking over" a foreign country would be too difficult & costly. We couldn't get a lot of people to move there, and then we'd have to get citizenship.

answerguy - Yes, an influx of 20,000 activists could make a big difference. The basis for choosing that number was an analysis of the Quebec seccessionist movement a few decades ago. Jason Sorens, the FSP founder, examines the question here:What can 20,000 liberty activists accomplish?
 
Idaho... give that state a reason to exist other than making Utahns feel better.


"At least we are not in Idaho!"

Seriously though, Idaho is a great state that has a lot of potential. I love northern Idaho and visit often.
 
Perhaps the FSP ought to employ the service of an economist and a political scientist.

Where ever Utopia is set up there will need to be an economy that can absorb 20,000+ Utopians. Typcially only the larger states (the ones specifically excluded) can absorb a migration.
 
Another interesting question is how many Americans now consider freedom (and taxes ...) when they move to another state? Based solely upon conversation, I would wager that consideration has risen in the last decade.

Regards from (relatively free) TX
 
waitone, the topic was discused on free state projetcs website. The move would take place over eight years, first they select a state(@ 5000 members), then when the groups gets to 20,000 members everyone who signed up has five years to move. They would stimilate the economy when they moved in, finding jobs wont to be horribly hard, and many members are retired.

FYI Wyoming seems to be in the lead, IMHO.

The website is www.freestateproject.com
 
Based on what I’ve seen as an immigrant to Wyoming, if FSP thinks its going to waltz into a western state with 20,000 people and make a bunch of changes, it is operating under a major delusion. The people of the states FSP is considering can be a real ornery bunch when people move in thinking they are going to change things. This is in addition to the implicit constraints caused by federal regulations that supersede anything the state does.

Has someone actually researched the laws of the target states and done a detailed comparative analysis other than the things on FSP’s website? If a state has a constitutional provision dealing with education, for example, it’s going to take a Herculean effort to get it changed. 20,000 votes will only make a difference if the population is nearly evenly divided. It won't matter in a state where elections are won with 75-80% of the vote.

The other major impediment I see is a lack of jobs. If any of these states could absorb 5-20,000 job seekers, they already would be overrun.

But, hey, it’s a free country, so have at it. The initial move should have a short term beneficial impact on the economy of the target state.
 
My Free State Project goes with me wherever I do. Wherever I am, I have a majority of one. -- Tamara
Then you have officially declared your support of the FSP and registered accordingly?

Is this a solo effort on your part? Gonna emigrate from Tennessee? Or is that too much of a commitment on your part?
 
I really hope the Free staters are taken in with open arms, that will be important. They seem to want to start out colonizing certain counties. If they get counties to themselves they can have quite a bit of freedom.

Part of the idea is the 20,000 will be activists, not just voters. Plus once the first 20K come in, several profreedom types should join up. I think if something like this starts to work, people will flock in, i am pretty sure freedom will be popular. Just look at how many freedom types we have on this website. Many people want to move to a place with low taxes, gun rights, the choice to homeschool, and to end victimless crime laws.

I think I will join, i want to help work towards a constitutional goverment. Things will only get worse the longer we wait. If we can get a state, we can stand up somewhat to the feds. The state could launch several constitutional challenges to the supreme court. How many people here would not want to live in a free state, assuming it works?

edit: WYO

yes, people have done lots of research. most of it is on the forums, but all of the laws are mapped out. The rest of the info is entered into many spreadsheets done by a couple different people.
 
I've kind of kept an eye on this project for the last couple of months. The One Thing you folks haven't taken into account is exactly what WYO was talking about.

Here in Idaho, whioch is the most Republican state in the Union, 20K votes won't get you squat. Even should you try to take over a specific county (and about the only county that could absorb 20K people over a 5 yr period is Ada), you would all have to vote Democrat to be even a little effective!

Outside of Ada county and Blaine County (Sun Valley/Hailey/Hollywierd North), you simply wouldn't be welcomed. The folk hereabouts take a real dim view on newcomers trying to change things.

Now I'm a transplant myself. But I came here because I wanted what was here. I fit in nicely. It was only the mid 80's that saw the last person who was told to be out of town by sundown. There are some counties where this still happens. I have friends in Wyoming and Montana, can't say that the're much different in attitude, though.

Now this isn't meant to discourage ya'll. But you really, really need to look at the attitudes of the existing natives before ya come barging in. We may be small in population, but we have a mean bark and a worse bite.
 
here is one of a few reports on Idaho, they seem to have the same beliefs as the libertarians.

http://www.freestateproject.com/idaho2.htm

the only people who should be threatened by us are the socialists, and any career welfare reciepients. Idaho has a nice libertarian and constitutional party, plus pretty close to the same laws as we want.
 
I assume these folks have figured out how 20,000 new imigrants are going to manage to get jobs in a really sparcly populated state. I suppose that they could work as fish processors in alaska or something. But, im at somewhat of a loss how idaho's economy is going to accomodate 20,000 new people looking for some kind of employment.
 
Seems to me the FS folks will be a mix of retirees, those who don't immediately need jobs, and some who will fit right in to the existing job market. It's certainly not gonna be a bunch of just Poli-Sci majors.

There is almost a "must" to the idea that these folks will be a bit above average in smarts. Gotta be, to seriously consider making the necessary changes in location, life style and political activities. Odds are, these folks will be good at their trades: Good mechanics, plumbers, electricians--as well as teachers, accountants or doctors.

And I doubt they're gonna all wad up in just one city or county.

Heck, if I didn't hate cold weather so much, I'd be right in there with them, but I already have my little hideout with almost no government at all...

:), Art
 
I would like to follow up on something that Al Norris said, and add something to what I said. I was welcomed to Wyoming, but the reason is that my family saw what it liked and moved to assimilate, not to take the place over and change it. I think that people who move to Wyoming with that attitude (and who can find a job) will do just fine. But when a group thinks it's going to tell the descendants of people who fought the Indian wars, cattle wars, depression, drought, boom-bust cycles, etc. for 125 years that "we are libertarians and we are here to change things," you can't imagine how much of a fight is in store.

dustind, I did look at the FSP website, but, unless I missed something, the materials looked superficial. It appeared that the criteria were based upon certain objective factors, like presence or absence of laws on the books on certain hot button topics. I didn't see anything dealing with the political climate, voting climate, culture, etc. I also saw some things that are downright false. For example, I saw this quote:
Federal dependence is very important. Research indicates that regions that receive more from the central government in expenditures than they pay in taxes are less likely to seek fiscal autonomy or sovereignty. Regions that pay more than they get back are more likely to seek autonomy, because they have a genuine grievance against the central government.
FSP may want to take a look at this quote as it pertains to Wyoming, because I'm quite sure that it will determine that Wyoming gets more federal aid than it pays in taxes. How do you think that a state with 500,000 population, and 97,000 square miles needing highways, gets by without a personal income tax and reasonable property and sales taxes? Just run a web search on federal subsidies, tax burden, and the like, and see what you find. This also may be true of other states in the area with small populations and large land masses.

On the job front, I can see that how a large group of retirees would lessen the need for jobs for all of the relocating people. The issue with retirees is usually the availability of transportation and medical care, which is not as good in a rural state as an urbanized state.

Again, I'm not trying to tell anyone not to move, just pointing out a few factors that probably should be considered.

Edited to add:

If anyone wants any info on relocating to Wyoming, feel free to drop me a PM with your questions.
 
the only people who should be threatened by us are the socialists, and any career welfare reciepients.
If you think that then you’ve never lived in the South (or the West for that matter). I’m 100% behind this idea, even if its bound for failure, although I don’t necessarily think that it is. However, you have no idea what you would be up against if you tried to move into a state that wasn’t so hot on the idea of people coming in and changing things. Shoot, I remember a local election not to long ago in Texas where a guy from Dallas had moved to a town and started running for offices in this new town. The local constituents considered him to be a carpetbagger (and even called him that) and didn’t elect him. And he was even a Texan and his politics matched the area perfectly, you can imagine what people would have thought if he was from out of state. I’m not trying to tell you this project is impossible, just trying to warn you. If you want to galvanize voters in these states, bring in a lot of people from out of state that express their specific desire is to change things.
 
Art, anybody who is "above average in smarts" will see this idea and its 26 year old guru is full of, well, hot air. :uhoh:

The fed gomt coerces cooperation thru use of highways, communications, commerce, etc. etc. You can't have it both ways - be a part of the USA and fence yourself off from the B:cuss: S:cuss:

Just my two sense.

George
 
I guess that if I had any advice to offer FS folks, it would be to stay shut up for a year or two before becoming politically active. Just like ahenry points out, people anywhere aren't much different about any outsider jumping up and yelling.

Assimilate. Fit in. Make local friends. Become known as a good guy, a trustworthy person.

Hook up with the local Kiwanis or Rotary, etc. Get involved with the YMCA or YWCA. Become part of the community. And just "go along to get along" until your opinions on various subject will have some credibility. IOW, "Make your bones." with your neighbors.

:), Art
 
But when a group thinks it's going to tell the descendants of people who fought the Indian wars, cattle wars, depression, drought, boom-bust cycles, etc. for 125 years that "we are libertarians and we are here to change things," you can't imagine how much of a fight is in store.
I am a Southerner by choice, genetic westerner, and an Army Brat by force. Southerners to this day have to endure "Yankees" telling us how to do it better. They tell us "we don't do things that way where I'm from." They make fun of our expressions ("Sir and M'am) or even get outraged because we try to retain civility.

I've seen how "outsiders" are isolated. Human nature being what it is will not tolerate unknown people riding into town and telling the locals how they got it wrong and how to do it better. Historical memories last a long time.

Perhaps the FS'ers ought to add to their economic and political consultants a social psychologist.
 
BigG, I agree with you about the "fence themselves off" aspect. They sure as heck can't get totally free of the feds, but it is indeed possible to reduce, to minimize the federal impacts.

If the "leadership" has enough political savvy (and assuming they can make headway in local and state government), it is possible to create a general political climate regarding spending such that the area is generally unattractive to those who survive via government handouts.

It's the reverse of "If you want more of something, subsidize it." E.g., those cities most active in programs for the homeless have more homeless.

This deal reminds me in part of the old days of the Republicans in Texas. Rather than work up a grassroots effort at the Precinct level, they'd run some previously-unknown millionaire for governor. Failure after failure, until the times changed. Same for the FSers. They gotta become part of the local community and after a while begin to work on local elections, first, before worrying a lot about the state-level stuff.

Stipulate they get their 20,000 into some state. It will then take some ten years before they have serious influence across the state...If and only if there is improvement, as defined by "just folks", will there be a chance of control.

Art
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top