Steel cased Ammo?

[Warp]

You should say "The definitive test with a Bushmaster AR:"

Does a Bushmaster AR accurately reflect ALL firearms on the market? No.

Do you have any other data points or documented evidence of the rate of wear with bimetal/steel jackets that differs from the well known lucky gunner test?

 

[Jackal]

Assuming AR use, generally speaking, if your rifle will run it, steel cased ammo makes excellent financial sense. When you save about $1000 per 10,000rds, a $200 barrel (Larue in my case) is a drop in the bucket. Its still a net saving of around $800 per top tier barrel. Performance wise, out to 300m, its worse accuracy and lower velocity isnt really going to matter.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The definitive test: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

10k rounds per ammo type. Accuracy, velocity, barrel condition.

Google is your friend!

Great link, conclusion: steel cased ammo wears guns much faster but the cheaper price of ammo will pay for replacement gun parts should you want to go down that road.

I'll use steel case ammo in my ak and SKS but none of my us or western European weapons.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

You should say "The definitive test with a Bushmaster AR:"

Does a Bushmaster AR accurately reflect ALL firearms on the market? No.

Do you have any other data points or documented evidence of the rate of wear with bimetal/steel jackets that differs from the well known lucky gunner test?

Everybody has seen this THAT article from Lucky Gunner Labs, and while it is a good article and full of good information, many people out in internet-land tend to draw conclusions that are not correct. One of the most quoted incorrect conclusions is "…bi-metal jacketed bullets wear out barrel twice as fast as copper jacketed bullets…"

It is unquestionable that Wolf, Brown Bear and (probably) Tula steel jacketed, bi-metal jacketed ammunition will wear out a barrel faster than Federal XM193 ammunition, but the but the extra jump to "all bi-metal" vs "all copper jacketed" is not supportable.

Here's why:

From the earliest day of smokeless propellant, the problem of bore erosion and wear has been a constant head-ache to owners of large number of high use guns and very expensive guns, namely the military. So, not surprisingly, they did a lot, and I mean A LOT, of research into what causes bore erosion, and how to reduce it.

There are basically two causes of bore wear - 1) heat, the flame temperature of burning propellant is anywhere from 2500 to 3000 degrees K, depending on the actual propellant (for reference, the melting point of the steel used in the barrel is 1700 degrees K), and 2) mechanical rubbing between the bullet and the barrel. Of the two, the effects of heat are probably the most damaging.

Here are some results of some US Army erosion tests done with 7.62mm Ball, M80:

Test firing.............Propellant..................... .....Jacket......No. of Rounds to.......Cause for
No...............................Type............. .....................Material....Disqualification. .......Disqualification

1..................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GM..............14,500.......... ...........V (1)
2.................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GMCS..........8,450............. ........K (2)
3................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GMCS........10,150.............. ........K
4................................IMR 8138M Lot 48..............GM................8,000........... ...........V
5................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GM................7,500.......... ............V
6................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GMCS..........7,850.............. ........K
7................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GMCS.........11,800.............. ........K
8................................WC 846 Lot AL44133..........GM..............17,300........... ...........V
9................................WC 846 Lot AL44133..........GMCS.........18,325.............. ........K

GM = Gilding Metal i.e., copper jacketed bullets.
GMCS = Gilding Metal Clad Steel, i.e., steel jecketed bullets

1) Velocity loss of more than 200 fps

2) Keyholing, defined as 20% or more bullets exceeding 15% yaw at 1000 inches (appox 25 meters)

The significant conclusions drawn from these results in the report this table was attached to were as follows:

1. Bullet jacket material (GM versus GMCS) does not appear to have a significant effect on barrel life. However, the GM jacketed lots all went out on velocity loss while the GMCS lots all went out on keyholing indicating that the mechanism of barrel failure was probably different.

2. WC 846 propellant is less erosive than IMR 8138M propellant.

One may note that test firings #2 and #6 differ greatly from #3 and #7, which is very puzzling as the components used were the same, and the propellant lots were the same. Also, the question of why did 8138M Lot #2 perform notably better that 8138 Lot #48, came up. In the report, the difference was written off to variations in the test barrels.

Partially in an attempt to explain the above, and also to test the usefulness of wear reducing additives, a second test was run, with stricter controls on barrel selection and more careful monitoring of various barrel parameters.

In this test several T65E1 machine guns (M1919A4s converted to 7.62mm) with chrome plated barrels were utilized. A 25 round belt was shot every 12 seconds until 500 rounds were expended. Then the barrel was allowed a 4 minute cool down period before the next 500 rounds were fired, again in 25 round increments. Bullet velocities and bullet yaw were continuously measured. Every 5000 rounds, the barrel was cooled to ambient, cleaned, measured, and samples of residue and bore fouling taken for analysis. The measuring consisted of measuring the diameter of the lands and grooves at 1 inch intervals were measured. Then the process was repeated until another 5000 rounds was shot, or the barrel failed due to keyholing or velocity loss.

The findings from the tests described in this report are summarized in the table below.

Summary of Results
.................................................. .................................................. ..................Adiabatic
.................................................. .................................................. ..................Isochoric
.................................................. .................................................. ..................AverageFlame.......No. of
Cartridge...........Bullet........................ ..........................CaC03...Mo03..........Te mp..............Rounds to
Lot No.................Design..................Propell ant..............(%)........(%)..............(K).. .................Disqual.

LC-SP-1368.......GMCS (1)..........Ball WC 846...........0.15............0.............2884.. ................10,417
LC 12923............GM (2)..............Ball WC 846............0.58...........0............2790... ...............18,042
FA-42-73...........GMCS.................Ball WC 846...........0.47...........0............2831.... ..............13,342
FA-2115..............GMCS.................Double Base............0..............1.05.........2889.. .................8,625
.................................................. ............Extruded
.................................................. ............Propellant
FA-2016..............GMCS.................Double Base............0................0.............291 2...................6,333
.................................................. ............Extruded
.................................................. ............Propellant

_______________________
1) Gilding Metal Clad Steel jackets (aka, steel jacketed or bi-metal bulets) have a total jacket thickness is .021" with an outer gliding metal cladding averaging .003" thick. The core is a lead-antimony alloy with 2% antimony, softer that the GM bullet design. (Note: this is about the same cladding thickness as used by Wolf, Brown Bear and Tula.)

2) Gilding Metal (aka 'copper') Jacket, the total thickness of the jacket is .026". The core is a lead-antimony alloy with 10% antimony.

Note: All GM jackets bullets came from the same production lot, as did all GMCS jacket bullets.

Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is an additive used to neutralize acid during the production of ball propellant. It has also been shown to reduce barrel wear, unfortunately, it also leads to increased fouling. WC846 made after 1969 was made with reduced CaCO3 content (less than .25%) in order to be used in the M16 without fouling the gas tube. At some point, WC864 with extremely low CaCO3 content was split-off as WC844, and WC846 with increased CaCO3 content was introduced as WC864+CaCO3 for use in 7.62mm, Ball, M80 specifically to increase barrel life.

You will note from the above table, and the before it, that there is a better correlation between flame temperatures, CaCO3 content and wear than jacket material and wear, especially if you know that 8138M has a flame temperature of 2770 to 2820 degrees K. GMCS jacketed bullet are only slightly harder on the barrel than GM jacketed bullets, but the choice of propellant can easily make up for the difference.

In the second test, measuring of the bore diameters did reveal something interesting. When a bore wears, enlarging of the throat tends to lead to velocity loss, as gas escapes around the bullet rather than pushing it down the barrel. Conversely, wear at the muzzle tends to lead to keyholing as the rifling loses its grip on the projectile before maximum velocity and maximum RPM are reached, therefore the bullet leaves the barrel with less spin than required to stabilize it

The measuring of the tested barrels showed the GMCS Jacketed bullets seem to open up the muzzle more than GM jacketed bullets, which would explain why GMCS jacketed bullets tended to keyhole. Not only did the land diameter increase, the groove diameter showed a similar enlargement. Possibly indicating a gas erosion phenomenon as the bullet nears the muzzle?

In all cases, the addition of calcium carbonate in the propellant drastically reduced the progression of throat erosion. Molybdeum trioxide did reduce throat erosion, but the fouling residue was so bad it made continued firing of the gun difficult (It formed in the recoil booster and prevented the barrel from sliding freely).

These are just two Army published reports that show that flame temperature of the propellant has a very large impact on barrel life. In fact, as a result of their years of study, the US Navy has adopted the simple solution to barrel erosion is simply reducing the flame temperature of the propellant and live with the reduced performance. This is the thinking that brought forth NACO (NAvy COol) propellant, and reduced muzzle velocity, and subsequently range.

(It is interesting to note that ball propellant, even though it is a double base propellant, burns cooler than 8138M, which is a single base propellant.)

The result shown in the Lucky Gunner test, are almost the exact same results as the results shown in the above two Army tests, namely, the relatively cool ball propellant used in M193 (WC 844, the same stuff as WC846 but with less CaCO3) will wear out a barrel in 13,000 to 15,000 rounds, and the reason for rejection will be velocity loss (if you look at the velocity chart for the copper jacketed bullets, the velocity loss will be more than 200 fps in about that time). We can only assume what powder Wolf, et al. are using, but it would seem from the results to be a relatively hot extruded propellant (double or single based) which has shown to wear out a barrel in about half the time as WC846/WC844, and the reason for rejection of the barrels is keyholing.

The other thing that always puzzles me is why people think that the cartridge case material, either brass or steel, has anything to do with barrel wear. All barrel wear that eventually condemns a barrel occurs from the throat of the chamber or forward. How does the steel cartridge case effect areas in the barrel that it does not touch?

For those interested, the titles of these reports are:

- Use of Inorganic Wear Reducing Additives to Provide Increased 7.62mm Barrel Life
- 7.62mm Barrel Life as Affected By Certain Inorganic Propellant Constituents and Bullet Designs

In one of the other two report referenced concerning US experimental steel cartridge cases noted in the above posts, there is a short 'Oh, by the way...' in that there was no undue wear on the weapons tested....

 

[Hacker15E]

Steel is perfectly fine to shoot in "today's guns". There is no verifiable and repeatable evidence that steel cases lead to increased chamber wear or extractor wear.

As has been noted, most cheap Russian ammo (which generally is what most "steel cased ammo" is) has hot-burning powder, irregular case charges, and irregular projectile weights, which leads to middling accuracy/precision. It is perfectly good practice/plinking ammo for most sport and recreational shooters' use.

I have reloaded thousands of steel cases in .223 and .45ACP, with no noted wear to the reloading dies, either.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I think it's fine for Russian / com-bloc guns or even AR's with Chrome lined barrels....

Every time, I have been at the range and a guy with an AR has a stuck case.... it's steel. Over the last 5 +/- years I'm thinking of 5-6 times. SO, some guys clearly dont have any issue, but every time there is an issue with an AR.... it's a non chrome lined AR with steel cased ammo.

SKS's, AK-47's....etc....etc... live on the stuff. No issues (IMO)

I've bought and shot "Wolf Gold" (Brass cased Wolf) and it was very consistent.

 

[stchman]

I think it's fine for Russian / com-bloc guns or even AR's with Chrome lined barrels....

Every time, I have been at the range and a guy with an AR has a stuck case.... it's steel. Over the last 5 +/- years I'm thinking of 5-6 times. SO, some guys clearly dont have any issue, but every time there is an issue with an AR.... it's a non chrome lined AR with steel cased ammo.

SKS's, AK-47's....etc....etc... live on the stuff. No issues (IMO)

I've bought and shot "Wolf Gold" (Brass cased Wolf) and it was very consistent.

Shhhhhh, I've bought quite a bit of steel cased .223 ammo at the range from guys that get it stuck in their ARs. I always bring cash to the range.

I remember I bought ~900 rounds of Ulyanovsk .223 for $90 from a fella at the range. That's $2 for a box of 20. I call that a bargain.

 

[jrdolall]

I couldn't count the number of rounds of Tula I have run through AR's without any issues. I bought a heap of it in 2013 and am still shooting it.

I run Tula and Wolf steel in 9mm and .38 every weekend. I DO have a couple of 9's that don't like it but I think that is because Tula tends to be at the lower end on power. One DB9 will not run with the Tula. It becomes a single shot.

I never read any articles or did any ballistics testing. I started buying it years ago solely for price reasons and have no guns that have stopped working because of it.

 

[Panzerschwein]

My Пистолет Макарова (PM) 9-mm eats steel-cased ammo all day long:



It also loves brass-cased fodder. Great pistol.