Strange 1911 Malfunction...

[Edward429451]

Had a strange malfunction on my MKIV series 80 yesterday at the range. I hardly ever have malfs with this gun and when it does its always my reloads but not this time.

My friend Daniel is shooting it left handed and it locks up in mid string. It appeared to be at slide lock but actually it was at the point in slide travel that the slide stop is lined up with the disassembly notch with the empty case still being held by the extractor. I dropped (removed) the mag and a slight touch to the case sent it down the magwell. The slidestop was fully seated in its place and did not work loose and bind it up. I had zero rearward travel of slide at that point but a light tap forward on the rear of slide freed it up and cycling was normal again. I field stripped it and could see nothing bent cracked broken etc., so reassembled it. The slide stopped at a point where it was apparent that the empty case never made it far enough back to be engaged by the ejector, so it jammed on the extraction stroke, and thats why the empty case was still in it. The case was fine, nothing out of the ordinary, no high pressure signs or anything. We was shooting some 200g lead swc's (H&G 68 style) handloads, midrange.

I function tested it and nothing was amiss so we continued shooting it until the ammo was gone with no more malfs.


Later I even thought he may have induced the malf by letting his thumb get in the way of the slidestop pin and tried to recreate the malf by manually retracting the slide and loosening the slidestop to get the slide to bind but could not get it to bind. The way he was holding it his thumbs weren't even close to the slidestop pin. I'm fairly certain it was not operator induced, so now I'm baffled. I have not detail stripped it yet, thought I'd run it by you guys first.

The history of the gun is bought new in 1984 and the only thing thats been done to it is
extended ejector
Lower the port
ramped & throated
polished trigger & disconnector
replacement firing pin lock & spring couple times
replacement recoil & firing pin springs
but is otherwise stock original and has been shot around 50 or 60K rounds through it over the last 20 yrs. Well maintained.

It's got me a little concerned as this is my daily carry piece and if something's starting to wear/break I don't need Murphy rearing his ugly head at a crucial moment. Any ideas?

 

[Edward429451]

Oh yeah forgot to mention that I did replace the barrel link pin last year also b/c the original had become loose enough to fall out inadvertantly upon disassembly. But its had at least 1000 rnds through it since replacement and zero probs there. I did inspect this area for anomelies (?) and found nothing obvious but keep in mind that I may not know what I'm looking for and it does show wear from use and I may not have seen it for that reason.

 

[stans]

My friend Daniel is shooting it left handed and it locks up in mid string.

Is Daniel right handed? The pistol might have been limp wristed and this will induce failure to fully extract.

 

[Edward429451]

No, Daniel is left handed. I threw that in in an attempt to cover all the possible variables. (two handed Weaver type grip)

Since I remembered and posted about the barrel link pin being replaced I'm wondering if that may indeed be the area of the problem, but its never done that before. I'm going to detail it this afternoon after work and have a closer look see at it all.

I don't see this as a limp wrist thing. The barrel/slide was locked up tight, the case did extract and did not stovepipe. It just never made it far enough rearward to be punched by the ejector before seizing...

 

[1911Tuner]

Strange

After re-reading the post, I deleted my answer. Gimme a few minutes to ponder on it and I'll get back to it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Re:

Okay...

The point that the slide stopped suggests that the firing pin stop dropped and caught on the back of the hammer. It's the failure to eject that has me a little puzzled. Hard to say if it's got anything to do with it, or if it was
incidental. Possible that the FP stop fell AND a limp-grip induced failure to eject occured at the same time...Hard to say.

The loose link pin may be a clue...Why did it loosen up? Is the barrel
long-linked? If it is...as in, Did somebody stick a long link in it to tighten up the vertical lockup? A link that's too much too long can put the barrel in a
bind if things get dirty around the hood and locking lugs.

Clean the gun and hand-cycle it slowly without the recoil spring. Can you feel a hesitation in the slide just as the barrel starts to link up and go to battery?

Standin' by...

Tuner

 

[Edward429451]

The barrel is not long linked. Factory original. I had thought that it just wore loose from use and replaced it so it wouldnt slide out on me and get lost while disassembled for cleaning. No out of the ordinary fouling was observed in the slide or on barrel lugs when I field stripped it. Powder was ww 231.

I'm heading out for a job right now but will get on it when I return.

 

[Dave Sample]

I don't think it's the gun. Is it Blue or Stainless Steel?

 

[Edward429451]

It's a blue 5" model.

I field stripped & cleaned it, it cant really be anything in the frame I think. I hand cycled it as tuner suggested with no recoil spring and its as slick as a whistle. No hesitation on lock up, just smooth operation. In battary, the barrel has the teeniest amount of up/down play in it.

The slide stopped in its rearward travel (when it jammed at the range) at the point where you'd remove the slide stop thru the disassembly notch in the slide. Closer inspection reveals that the FP lock would be barely behind the hammer at that point. I had no more rearward travel of slide at that point, but a tap with the palm of my hand on the rear of the slide freed it up. I checked for free movement of the FP, extractor, FP lock, barrel & slide. Nothing was in a bind cept the barrel & slide and no debris was noted beyond the usual powder fouling.

I think the failure to eject is incidental. It didn't make it back far enough to reach the (extended) ejector.

I'm not understanding how a limp wrist could cause it to lock up in mid cycle and stay locked up after the weapon is cleared, but don't want to rule anything out. A limp wrist jam is a jam that binds up on a pc of brass b/c you didn't stiff wrist it and leaves you a stovepipe. Daniels jam left the empty brass in place under the extractor and the slide hadn't traveled far enough back to release another round from the mag yet. Correct me if I'm wrong on the stovepipe thing.

 

[1911Tuner]

Stovepipe

Edward said:

Correct me if I'm wrong on the stovepipe thing.

Nope...You're spot on. I dunno, Edward. Sounds like it was probably a fluke. mabe a combination of a short load and a piece of grit or brass
shaving got tangled up in the works just at the right (or wrong) time.

One more quick test. Recoil spring and plug in the empty gun...Hand cycle
the slide slowly with the muzzle pointed straight down...4-5 times should
be enough. If there's no hesitation or stoppage, there's not likely a problem with the slide/barrel tolerances. Turn the pistol upside down and
hand cycle it. If it unlocks and returns to battery smoothly, the gun is
probably okay. Since this was the only time it's done it over the years...
I call fluke. Clean it and shoot it another 200 rounds or so and it it stops again, look carefully at anything that COULD stop the slide. If you don't
see anything, see if it will free up with the case still under the extractor.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[Edward429451]

Did those and it's fine. It's always nice when you think you have a problem and the mechanic says 'fluke!", instead of 'oh oh, bad flux capacitor, that'll be 900 dollars...'

So Tuner, is there a point in the mileage on a pistol where its a good idea to send the thing in and have it gone through by a pro? Replace pins, worn parts and stuff. My extractor is original and showing some serious wear. I hear of so many extractor problems from guys though who bought the new bulletproof type upgrade ones and have problems though, I've not done that b/c its still working and I dont want the headache of probs with new parts.

Is Colt's QC good enough to still do stuff like this at this point? My feelings on Colt is that it'd be a crap shoot based on what I hear...

 

[1911Tuner]

Rebuild it?

Howdy Edward,

There are two schools of thought on high-mileage guns. One is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and the other....which I'm a subscriber to if the gun is
to be carried for protection..."A stitch in time saves nine."

Colt's early Series 80 barstock extractors held up pretty well, as yours obviously has. An Ed Brown Hardcore or Wilson Bulletproof extractor is
cheap insurance against failure. Cylinder & Slide's spring steel extractor is the best of the aftermarket extractors, but generally need to be tweaked
before they'll work, which voids the warranty.

Colt's pins are steel, and the only problem might be some wear. Also cheap
in Brownells Colt section. The sear and disconnect in the early Series 80 guns may be steel and they may be cast. I've seen both in those guns.
A replacement sear and disconnect won't break the bank, even if they
need a little fitting...Nowlin Pro-match sears and Briley barstock disconnects
drop in and work in a Colt about as often as not...and a little prep is about all they need.

Colt's hammers are blanked, heat-treated steel and generally hold up well.
You'll probably want to install all new springs throughout the gun, too.
Unless a smith finds something obviously wrong, and if you don't want the
slide to frame tightened and refitted, you can probably get it overhauled
for around 250 bucks, parts and labor. Add another 120 if it needs a new barrel, and 200 if you opt for an aftermarket "gunsmith fit" barrel.

Now for the kicker...You can *probably* do it yourself with a very good chance of success, assuming that there's not a lot of fitting involved...
and even if there is a little fitting necessary, it ain't exactly rocket science.

At the very keast, I'd let a smith tear it down and inspect everything for wear or impending failure.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[Edward429451]

Normally, I'm a if it aint broke don't fix it guy, but we all know that that only works for so long and then things will happen eventually...

So A stitch in time saves 8+1 is where I'm at right now. That extractors been in the back of my mind for awhile now and who knows what else is ready.

Good advice Tuner, as usual.

 

[Dave Sample]

Clean the gun and run it. Pay attention to the barrel bed and the top inside lugs in the slide. Extractors are really very forgiving and 1911's will run fine with almost no tension. I have seen them with a wide variety of tension and the shorter the slide, the less you need. I am glad we eliminated the Evil Mojo from this malfunction.

 

[joegerardi]

Pardon me for jumping in...
I was wondering if this might be it: I took my 1991A1 and held it left handed. Is it possible his index finger was pushing up on the slide stop so that it engages the stop at the disassembly notch? I tried it manually, and I was able to get it to bind a little, but not lock there, but that was under hand pressure, not full recoil. If he has big hands, maybe his knuckle rode a little higher, causing it to freeze there.

Just a thought...

..Joe

 

[Edward429451]

So there I was again tearing apart the 45 to see if maybe I missed something, and to take a very critical look at everything while contemplating partial or full rebuild...and a glint of light off the barrel, a teeny shiny spot just a might shinier than all the wear on the blued barrel. Right where the collet bushing rides. Picked up the bushing and sure enough, one leg of the collet bushing was slightly shorter than the others. I know how I missed it. I was thinking that if a leg ever broke off of it that it'd be at the base of the leg. I looked real good for cracks at that end and the shorter leg wasn't immediately obvious so I just missed it. There's slight evidence that it got tangled up in the recoil spring.

That dang Colt broke on me after only 20 years, can you believe it? I oughta give them a piece of my mind! Boycott Boycott!! Nasty E-Mails everyone! They owe me a new pistol! Rant rant rant!!

Thats pretty impressive really. It's time for a tune up/rebuild before it breaks down though. Even my untrained eye can see wear here & there in it. I looked the Wilson stuff for it and I can get almost everything for it sans barrel for 2 or 250. If a good job comes along I may even spring for a barsto barrel while I'm at it. I still can beleive I missed it the first time but at least the ghost is gone.

 

[1911Tuner]

Shiny Spot

A collet bushing..in a MKIV Series 80?

 

[Edward429451]

Yeah, I think thats what its called. It's not the solid bushing, its got 4 legs instead of being solid. I bought it new with it, never replaced it. ??

 

[BigG]

The Tuner sez:

A collet bushing..in a MKIV Series 80?

I've got a MKIV Series 80 Gold Cup that has the Series 70 bbl and spring bushing. Colt never throws anything away but puts guns together with the parts they have.

 

[1911Tuner]

70 Collet in an 80 Pistol

Hmmmm...Thassa new one on me. I'd heard rumors of Series 80 guns with
Series 70 barrels and bushings, but never talked to anybody that had actually owned one. I always figgered that it was an owner-inspired retro-fit.

Ya learn somethin' ever' dang day, I reckon...

 

[Edward429451]

So this is really supposed to be a solid bushing? I had figured on going back with another collet bushing seeing as how it was 'original' in this pc...even though I've heard the bellyachs about them. Is there really an advantage to one vs the other?

 

[1911Tuner]

The Collet

Howdy Edward,

When the collet bushings were correctly fitted, they worked pretty well.
When they weren't, they didn't help accuracy much if any...and they could break, as you've seen. I've seen a few break and tie the gun up hard.
One required drilling the slidestop arm off in order to let me get the gun apart...and there was some pretty ugly damage to the frame and barrel.

FWIW...I'd replace it with a good solid bushing that's been correctly fit to
the slide and barrel. IMO, it wasn't one of Colt's better ideas.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[Dave Sample]

You are very lucky. Like Tuner, I never even dreamed you would have a collet bushing in that 1911. I have had to beat them apart with lead hammers to get them undone and no 1911 ever left this shop with one of them in the gun. Put a good solid bushing in that gun. A stock one would probably work just fine.

 

[Edward429451]

Hammers? Drilling? Whoa. Solid it is! Musta got lucky that such a small piece broke off.

 

[BigG]

I have had to beat them apart with lead hammers to get them undone

I guess if you had one of the fingers break off you might have to but to disassemble the pistol normally the drill is slightly different on one with a collet bushing than a solid one. Just retract the slide a bit, push in the plug, and rotate the bushing as usual. The enlarged end of the bbl makes it difficult to rotate the bushing with the slide fully forward.