Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Strange Bedfellows

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Mark Tyson, Jan 10, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    Where the one eyed man is king
    A number of threads here have addressed the issue of gay and sexual minority gun rights groups. I think that the gay community should be more aggressively targeted for recruitment by the gun rights movement.

    Gays are frequently victims of violent crime for their lifestyle. When these crimes happen the police are where they always are, too far away to help. The self defense argument may be the gun rights movement's most compelling argument. Stories about gays who defended themselves from hateful bigots are just as powerful as stories about abused women who fought back against their tormenters.

    Politicians who throw away that mass-mailed NRA card without a second thought will pay attention to a letter from a group like pink pistols. Gays are stereotyped as liberal, and left wing politicians may take their vote for granted. When they realize that their position on this issue is costing them votes among one of their central cocnstituencies, they will definitely take notice.

    A gay gun owner is about as far from the stereotype of the "illiterate redneck"(forgive me for using that word) as you can get. Peaceful gun owners have been subjected to a great deal of such hateful slander during the dark years Clinton's (spit) reign. Some of that slander has unfortunately managed to stick, and we must do our best to wash it away.

    I think that the shooting community, firearms training facilities, or similar groups should take out ads in gay publications and otherwise invite them to empower themselves to fight back against those who would take away their rights or their lives. I think we should discuss methods for reaching out to them.
     
  2. David Roberson

    David Roberson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    Iron Station, NC
    Amen. We need to work more closely with all those who want to defend freedom. Gays and racial minorities are good prospects for allies in the ongoing campaign against Those Who Would Be Our Masters.
     
  3. scottgun

    scottgun Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    CO
    Not everyone believes that homosexuality is an acceptable life style, or that people need to define themselves based on their sexual preferences.

    If you are into shooting, that's great, but I don't care and don't want to hear about your sexual preferences.
     
  4. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,067
    Location:
    alaska
    i think that all oppressed people are beginning to realize that they have to take matters of personal safety and security into their own hands. its commendable to see groups like Pink Pistols gain positive exposure.

    its unfortunate that people still try to play 'higher entity' and judge another persons choices, and worse yet, take action against those who they judge 'unworthy'. we'd like to think that society would display positive traits and foster tolerance. that may take a few more generations to accomplish however.


    with that said, i'd like to play devils advocate for a brief moment. everyone has opinions, and what floats one persons boat doesnt always float anothers. and if i should want to state my thoughts on why i like my eggs overeasy as opposed to scrambled should be allowed. all this political correct BS just frustrates me. as long as i dont try to make everyone else prepare their eggs overeasy and impose my system of beliefs on others, why should anyone care what i say about it? its not like i'm saying that deviants who like scrambled eggs will burn in each of the 9 levels of hell.
    we have opinions. why is it wrong to express our opinions? i'm not just talking about sexual orientation, i'm talking about issues or race, gender, 9mm vs .45, glock vs 1911, tomato vs tomatoe.
    all i ask is to be able to SPEAK MY MIND. i dont want you to conform to emulate me. just let me rant for a minute or two, just like i've done here.

    okay, back to our regular programming.
     
  5. roscoe

    roscoe Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,301
    Location:
    NV
    Scottgun,

    I think the point is that homosexuals do exist and do identify themselves as a distinct group. They are a vocal minority that often gets listened to by the left and, as such, represent a potentially effective advocacy group supporting RKBA. You will find that liberals will listen to what they have to say more often than they will listen to many other groups.

    Given the prevelance of gay-bashing, they have an easily identifiable and articulable reason to carry firearms, and they are treated respectfully by the press.

    They could easily become a powerful ally, if we can bring them around in numbers.

    Your difficulty in accepting their lifestyle is potentially counterproductive to promoting the cause of RKBA generally. Besides, nowadays identifying ineself as gay/lesbian is as much a political statement as a sexual one.
     
  6. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,685
    Gays got political clout. While I don't care what a person's political preference is at the range and it's irrelevant there anyhow (the only real relevant issue is safety), if we can muster their influence in favor of the Second Amendment when it comes to the ballot box and influencing politicians, we should. In the fight for our rights, we can't be picky about our allies or exclude potential allies. We've been losing ground since '68 and it's time to retake them.
     
  7. Gordon

    Gordon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    8,298
    Location:
    central Kali.
    How about "nobody bashes a .32" for a slogan?:evil:
     
  8. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,683
    I read recently that the pink pistols were getting letters of support from NRA members and other "conservative groups"
    at the same time a huge amount of hate mail from gay rights groups telling them they are giving a bad name to gays everywhere by embracing violence.

    Strance bedfellows indeed.
     
  9. Morgan

    Morgan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    546
    The Pink Pistols are a great group. The gay community as a whole probably isn't comfortable with the NRA, etc., but now, with a group of their own, they (and we) have a great opportunity to reach liberal politicians.

    The gay community is also typically an upper-class financial group with a penchant for conspicuous consumption (as evidenced by Jaguar's recent gay market ads). It'd be interesting to know what the weapon of choice is among them.
     
  10. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,683
    Its got to be a Glock :D :neener:
     
  11. sctman800

    sctman800 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    513
    Location:
    Westville, Ill.
    I am a happly married man with a great wife, she likes guns also. That being the case, I don't want to be hit on by any one, gay guy or good looking woman, but as long as they are not hitting on me I care less about their sex life. I work with a young black guy who is gay, we all know it but he doesn't bother anyone about being gay, or black. I think he is a nice kid, I say kid because he is quite a bit younger than me. I guess what I am trying to say is that I would rather sit down and eat lunch and talk to a gay guy than the most gorgeous woman in the world if she is a "gun hater" Guns and freedom are a lot more importaint to me than someones sexual orientation. A man has to set priorieties. Jim.
     
  12. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,041
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    I have more in common with homosexual Second Amendment and firearms enthusiasts than heterosexual anti-Second Amendment bigots; I remain, however, profoundly bored with other people's love lives.
     
  13. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,067
    Location:
    alaska
    why do all straight men fear being hit on by gay men? maybe since i rarely get women hitting on my fugly mug i know i have nothing to fear from a homosexual trying to flirt with me. :D

    and because of that, its obvious that i dont have to be flamboyantly straight, so it'd be nice if out of common courtesy everyone else could refrain from being flamboyantly whatever as well.

    we all have a stereotype of homosexuals looking a certain way, acting differently, talking with a lisp, behaving in a feminine manner, etc.

    PM me if you want to hear what henry rollins had to say about homosexuals and the 'perks' such a lifestyle would bring. i'd post it here, but it might be offensive to some.
     
  14. Gordon

    Gordon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    8,298
    Location:
    central Kali.
    Now I'm a hetro old man with grand kids but I'd like to shoot with a homosexual man or women. "An armed society is a polite society" . I would NOT like to shoot with a "hairy chested nut scratcher", and would not like to be around an anti.:)
     
  15. MessedUpMike

    MessedUpMike Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    179
    Location:
    Metro DC
    I think some people are getting jumpy and missing the point."hairy chested nut scratcher"? I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a generalazation of a particular sexual preference, or a condemnation against all of us who have hairy chests and scratch. It's not very polite at any rate and doesn't do much to put us in better light. There was a thread recently about the difference between beliefs and convictions. For those of us who feel the RKBA is a conviction and a right for EVERYONE we have to embrace everyone who feels the same. It kind of makes it a double edged sword. Personally there are many more peole who would make me uncofortable to be around armed than the Pink Pistols. Skinheads come immediately to mind. I feel it's worthwhile to support ANYONE who wants to take up arms in the interest of personal defense who does not intend harm towards others. It would also help to stop us from looking like a bunch of hairy chested, beer drinking, crushing cans on our heads, overthrow the government, cheered when bambi's mother died rednecks to accept and encourage a diversified crowd.
     
  16. Gray Peterson

    Gray Peterson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    Lynnwood, Washington
    <b>we all have a stereotype of homosexuals looking a certain way, acting differently, talking with a lisp, behaving in a feminine manner, etc. </b>

    Speaking as a gay man, I can say that some of it is an act. Me, I do it only on rare occasion as a matter of comedy.

    There are those who use it to be shocking, and do it all the time. Some do it because they're just psychologically effeminate, whereas some do it just to "piss the breeders off".

    Let me say this:

    I'm butch. I'm masculine. You wouldn't be able to tell I'm gay. I could be your friend just as easily because I don't push my sexuality on people. I don't hide it, but I don't push it, either.
     
  17. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    "No one bashes a .32"..Great slogan..

    The NRA should set up a booth in that annual SF Gay pride parade. Ah the future...

    ""We're here...we're queer...we're ARMED..."

    "Senator Boxer, we are here on behalf of the SF gay gun owners society. We are letting you know that in our opinion, gun control is nothing more than a plot of the extrmeist right wing to ensure we are helpless and defenseless so they can feel free to bash us. Because of your anti second amendment attitude, we are withdrawing our support from you...."

    Naa wake up...too many gun owners see freedom as a means only to carry as much hardware as they want to fuel their own hatreds, rather than as an open society where all are welcome. Look at some of the extremist posts on this Board.
     
  18. Pendragon

    Pendragon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,361
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Most people who have a problem with gay people because:

    1. They grew up in a church that denounces the homosexual lifestyle

    2. They are ooged out by it and cannot get over it - much like 3 year olds are about bathroom functions.


    Listen - if you have a religious problem with homosexuals, fine - just be consistent. Most people who I know who get hung up on this issue for religious reasons have no trouble associating with heterosexuals who practice extra-marital sex. Thats just as "sinful" - yet it is not as "repulsive" so they do not alter their lifestyle to avoid people who may be doing that.

    Second - the whole weird "oh I hope they dont hit on me!" thing is just preposterous. I have a few gay friends and guess what? They dont go around trying to cop a feel or convert me or other straight people. I mean seriously, this makes me laugh.

    Whether or not you agree with their "lifestyle", you cannot deny two things:

    1. They have a right to live and defend their life.

    2. They are a powerful political force that could give RKBA a real shot in the arm.
     
  19. Trisha

    Trisha Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,310
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    working on my first cup of coffee...

    If the 2A movement was successful, then American youth would be involved en-masse; but it's not.

    If the 2A movement was inherently relevant, then +30 years of LSD gun-bashing would've been completely inneffective; but that's turned out differently.

    If the 2A movement was celebrating active outreach and inclusion, then all demographics of our society would be visible and comfortable at the range; but that isn't happening.

    What to do?

    Learn enough about the people you identify as "them" to deconstruct any stereotype - so we can relate to each other. I see enough evidence of stereotypes in this thread (and one other comes immediately to mind...) to make me wince:

    But I will resist the urge to try and address them (....somehow...); that's something for you to look into. Here's a place to start, if you're so inclined: http://www.inthelifetv.org/

    For those of you who haven't visited Pink Pistols web site, please go and do some reading: http://www.pinkpistols.org/

    I've very recently learned that being a lesbian is seen as being akin to accessorizing my basic reality with hearing concepts such as "it's a lifestyle choice," or "it's about what you do behind closed doors," and so on.

    You've got your homework cut out for you (no one specifically, please).

    The 2A movement defines itself as being isolationist every time more demonstrations of stereotypical definitions are voiced - and the LSD's celebrate - because they've made the active outreach.

    We're not "them."

    We're already among you.

    We're members of your Police Departments, teachers, electricians, paramedics, firefighters, truck drivers, dentists, authors; we're your children, your relatives, your best friends - and you likely don't know that yet if you see "us" as "them."

    Taking a very deep breath....

    I've only neen out for a little over a decade - and I went "public" with this, my first article:
    http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1741

    To me, just as to the millions of other LBGT people, I'm normal.

    The intolerance still so pervasive sees somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000 adolescent Americans either literally kicked out of their homes for coming out - or they leave out of desperation; and they are killed there in horrifying numbers every day. One municipality verified that 92% of their homeless youth was LBGT...

    The 2A community likes to see itself as defining the very best of what it is to be an American, to embrace and cherish liberty, insuring a future that sees the reality of our "melting pot" Republic viable and renewed delivered to our inheritors.

    That doesn't seem to be happening, does it?

    In our homes, should a family member come out and ask questions about being gay, are we reaching out with humanity and acceptance and love and courage - living the reality that willl see us delivering that idealistic vision intact?

    We can do so much more - but it will mean we build bridges: "What's the best way to build a bridge?" "From both ends, simultaneously!"

    A few of us are being very visible, initiating just that concept.

    I believe that together, actualizing the motto "United we stand," we can deliver on the promise of Liberty to a degree unimaginable to the apathetic, the disenfranchized, the "them."

    By example.

    Trisha
     
  20. JamisJockey

    JamisJockey member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,745
    Location:
    Northern VA
    How would you feel if he was out, on his own time, and maybe tried to pick up a new 'friend' in a bar. Instead, three rednecks beat him up and tie him to a fence, leaving him to die...?
    Now, how would you feel if he saved his own hide with a firearm?
    The reason we should 'target' these groups is because they are discriminated against. The second amendment is all about empowerment. People can defend themselves and don't need to rely on JBT's to do it!
    :fire:

    By the way, I'm an Athiest Libertarian. You Bible thumpers have every right to believe what you want, the same that I, or a gay, or any :cuss:ing one else has the right to believe what they want!


    :neener:
     
  21. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,309
    Location:
    Louisiana, USA
    Pendragon - EXACTLY! I angered many in my congregation a while back by making exactly your point: sexual sin (according to the classic Christian biblical definition) involves any sexual relationship outside a monogamous, male-female, permanent married relationship. Whether it's hetero- or homosexual is absolutely irrelevant - the definition is relatively simple and straightforward. This makes many Christians, who are involved in heterosexual extra-marital relationships, very uncomfortable, due to the beam in their own eye, which makes it difficult for them to point out the splinter in their homosexual neighbor's eye...

    I think it's important to recognize that we live in a post-Christian, multi-faceted society. I guess the great majority of society (probably in excess of 80%, perhaps over 90%), whether or not they proclaim any particular morality (Christian or otherwise) with their mouths, do not practice it in their daily lives. They've developed a double standard of living - "what I do and say in Church need not equate to what I do and say in my private life, and the twain need never meet". Even worse is that many allegedly Christian leaders fail the "morality test" miserably - and if their leaders are repeatedly caught in such moral peccadilloes, why should their followers feel guilty or uptight if they do the same thing(s)? Think of high-profile public figures like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jimmy Swaggart, Cardinal Law (who admittedly did not commit such lapses himself, but covered for those who had), President Clinton, Congressman Barney Frank, and so on.

    Oddly enough, many gun-owners and Second Amendment supporters are guilty of exactly the same kind of self-deception. They talk at great length, sometimes very vehemently, about what the Second Amendment means, and how it must be defended to the death, and how important it is: but then they'll turn around and verbally blast another individual or group because they don't observe the same moral/religious/sexual/political norms as they do, or because their particular viewpoint is "un-American", or because they disagree on some point or other. If we regard the Second Amendment as critically important, what about the First, Third, etc., etc.? If we expect our rights and freedoms under the 2A to be supported and defended, we have to defend the rights to freedom of speech, religious liberty, freedom of association, etc. of others. It's a seamless continuum... one can't violate rights at one point without affecting the entire continuum of rights as a whole.

    Let's apply this to religious choice and morality for a moment. (Puts on Preacherman's official costume, adjusts foil-lined hat...) As far as I know, and the Bible reveals, God's gift to humanity has always been, first and foremost, the gift of free will. We can read the Bible, hear the message of Jesus, and decide freely whether or not we wish to accept it. If we don't, God loves us enough to respect our choice, even though it may lead us to damnation. If He wanted conscripts in His army, he wouldn't have asked us to volunteer! (Removes Preacherman costume, continues to write in unpreacherly deshabillé.) I can't fault those who choose another religion, or a different version of Christianity - they have the right to choose, or to reject, whatever beliefs they choose.

    In the same way, there are those who have made choices concerning their sexuality that I find personally distasteful, but they do not share my opinion. Fine - that's their right. It may be contrary to all that I believe, but they don't believe what I do. I must grant to them exactly what I want and expect and require them to grant to me - the freedom to choose for myself! It's a two-way street, and traffic must flow in both directions. I may believe that they're wrong, and try to "convert" them - but I never have the right to force my views on them. I shall almost certainly have a far greater effect on others by living what I believe in, and preaching by example, rather than by bombarding them with words alone, and banging them over the head with a Bible in which they don't believe!

    By all means, if we agree on a common principle (in this case, the right to keep and bear arms), let's unite around that. Extraneous issues such as which arms, borne where, in what color, with what quantity and/or type of ammunition, and under what weather conditions, biorhythm indicators and planetary aspects of the Zodiac, are really not important. If we can work together regardless of race, creed, color or sexual preference, we're much more likely to prevail. If not... well, wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said something to the effect that "if we don't hang together, we shall most assuredly hang separately?"
     
  22. Archie

    Archie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    1,925
    Location:
    Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
    Amen!

    Preacherman

    From some things Preacherman has said, I believe he is of the Roman Church. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I'm a Southern Baptist, which is about as Protestant as one can be. But he is right on the mark! His comments are absolutely correct regarding sin and free will.

    It is not particular actions (homosexuality, smoking, scratching in front of Mom) that condemn us, it is our rejection of Jesus Christ.
    Jesus also said to "...render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's..." In other words, pay attention to the matter at hand.

    Scottgun, let me ask you: Are you as careful in the rest of your life regarding dealings with "sinners"? Do you check out your auto mechanic and make sure he's not a smoker? Or a pornography enthusiast? Do you determine the grocery store clerk is not a gossip? (Paul condemns gossips along with homosexuals in the same sentence, by the way.)

    There are many beliefs with which I take issue; Atc1man is an atheist. Maybe he and I can argue over that. But we have the background of being shootists and servicemen in common. And I'm a Libratarian as well. I would not run him out of the Pro Gun movement for his lack of belief.

    I do not agree with the premise of homosexuality; but I certainly don't think they should be fair game for any nitwit who has to prove his or her superiority by cowardly violence.

    I can tell you all this: If we loose the right to own weapons, we will eventually loose the right to choose our church, our God, or our sexual partner.
     
  23. Keith

    Keith Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,784
    Location:
    Kodiak, Alaska
    It certainly looks like the majority opinion here is to be inclusive rather than exclusive, so let's put our money where our mouth is and contact the Pink Pistols and simular groups and invite them over!

    I wonder if a new forum under Social Situations would be appropriate? So these people could have a home base of some sort...

    Oleg, are you up for this?

    Keith
     
  24. Betty

    Betty Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    933
    Location:
    Nashville, TN, USA
    We've already had other threads discussing forums for specific groups of people, but that only separates us. We don't need to start it, or we're going to get too subdivided into bzillions of other forums like "Women with Guns", "Gays with Guns", "Disabled with Guns", etc.

    Personally, I don't like neverending, super-subdivided categories - one reason why I don't frequent knifeforums.com anymore.

    ALL responsible gun owners are welcome to gather here - heck, I believe some of our members are from Pink Pistols.
     
  25. scottgun

    scottgun Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    CO
    Archie, I think you have taken other people's posts to extrapolate that I opposed to homosexuality based on religious views. I have made no such arguement.
    Also, you state that you "do not agree with the premise of homosexuality". I agree with you.

    We are all free to live our lives the way we wish, to a certain extent. I'm not going to convince anyone that what they are doing is wrong, that's not my job. I'm not a "Bible thumper" or "ilitarate red neck" gay basher, or homophobe, or any of the other names that are brought up when some one doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle. I may have a son or daughter someday who is gay and will I have to accept that. I will judge an individual based on their own merits, if that individual needs to identify themself with a particular group, then they open themselves to being judged on the merits of the group and not solely based on their own merits. I do believe in right and wrong, not moral relativism.

    We can all subcategorize ourselves then call each other names, but I don't think that is very productive.
    I enjoy reading your gun related stories, but as I said earlier, what you do in the bedroom is private and should remain so.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page